[sanhestar]

@Carl Russell 6396 wrote:

The one thing I can see about clicker training is that all horses have the inclination to be indomitable. In other words in the natural hierarchy when given the chance to not live as a subordinate, they will do that. I can see that the clicker training is designed to bring that animal out, which is very different than the animal that comes out of a “dominance” oriented relationship based on submission.

Carl,

I think that only a small percentage of horses or dogs or cattle or sheep or whatever is born to be THE one to lead and protect a herd (being mentally able for it and being groomed into this task by another herd leader). But every animal that experiences that it can’t trust the human it bonded with to keepi it safe will look to take leadership for its own protection. Wether it’s mentally fit for that or not (and in that case often developing problematic behaviour).

[sanhestar]

Rob,

and that’s where your logic is wrong. The click is meant as a release signal, every time.

If you want to teach the horse to show a behaviour over a longer period of time you may want to introduce a “keep up with what you’re doing” signal (mentioned it before) and build step by step that the behaviour is shown over a longer period of time before it’s released by the clicker.

[sanhestar]

Donn,

many people, when first confronted with clickertraining, rely solely on the clicker as the defining instrument of this training method.

But the definining thing of clicker training is “training by positive reinforcement”.

I’m not sure how well you’re into learning behaviour and learning theories.

Basically there is positive reinforcement – something good is added when a wanted behaviour is shown

and negative reinforcement – something bad is added to stop unwanted behaviour

very simply put.

Most horse training methods base heavily on negative reinforcement: adding of pressure until the animal shows a behaviour we want and then letting this pressure go.

f.e. – you want the horse to take a step back: you will either pull on a leash or rein or apply pressure to the nose or tap with a whip or make it pack up through body language and pressure

all of this is basically negative reinforcement – you add pressure to get a response and then release the pressure.

Clicker training is based on the idea to let the animal figure out the solution itself. After the basic introduction of “click” means “treat” you start observing the animal that will, in its desire to earn more treats will start with several responses: it may take a step forward, a step back, paw, shake its head (dogs will also sit or lay down). As soon as you observe the behaviour you want to capture and later adress with a command, you click&treat.

The clicker itself is a tool to provide a neutral praise that won’t transmit any tension or anger on the human part (as voice so often will) and no variations in intonation – it’s the same every time. And with a little practice, the clicker is also faster, just a quick movement of the thumb to create the sound. I tried it and it’s really faster than saying “good” or any other verbal praise. So you can praise/capture very exact movements and later, variations of movements when you step into advanced clicker training, called shaping.

The important thing is that the click ALWAYS and without exception means: TREAT and end of behaviour.

If you later want to cut down on the treats, do not stop giving treats after clicking just cut down on the clicking. First you will click every time you get the wanted behaviour, later maybe every second time and later you will vary and become unpredictable when the treat will be given (not like “will the click will be followed by treat” but more like “will I get a click&treat this time?”)

The theory behind this is that if praise and treat are unpredictable but still occur in intervalls that are short enough to keep the apprehension up, the animal will work for the possibility of the treat. Like we do for a paycheck or gamblers for “the big jackpot”. An often used analogy for clickertrainers is “become a slot machine”.

About dominance: there are good clicker trainers that don’t need dominance because the overall relationship to their animals is that good. What you need – and some people often get that wrong – is a clear set of rules that must not be violated either the animal nor the trainer.

One of the first lessions to teach an animal after having it introduced to the clicker is to teach it not to push/bully for the treat. With dogs f.e. you would set up a bowl with tasty smelling treats in eyesight of the dog; dog on leash; clicker ready. You then position yourself and the dog a bit out of reach of this bowl. The dog will naturally fix the bowl which you will ignore until the dog gives the first indication to look at YOU and not at the treats. Click, you both go to the bowl, dog gets its treat, back to position – repeat.

Similar with horses where you set up the environment f.e. with a gate between you plus treats and the horse and wait for the horse to take a step back before clicking and treating.

Both exercises teach the animal a degree of self control, that you are in control of the resource food and that the animal is expected to “work” for the treat.

On the downside (if you like to call it that) you will get an animal with a very active brain that will have the ability and willingness to work with you through a problem. If you’re used to animals that just respond this can take some time getting used to.

I stop know although the field is much wider and deeper. If you like to, google “Karen Pryor” or check clickertraining.com

[sanhestar]

@Rob FLory 6296 wrote:

We started working with him out in the barnyard with one person holding him as the silent partner, doing little more than squaring him. I have been the trainer. I soften him up with some grooming, starting at the shoulders etc. where he really likes it, and working down to the feet. I get a foot up, hold it for a little while, click him, hold it a while longer, give a release command, and put the foot down. We have progressed from 5-10 second lifts with effort to him lifting them on command the majority of the time, and holding them for a minute plus for cleaning and trimming the frog, etc.

Rob,

I see a failure in your logic at what you described there.

In clickertraining it’s stated that the click & treat also means “end of behaviour”. No problem to ask for the same behaviour a few seconds later again, but with the click&treat you release the animal for THIS moment.

So, if you hold his foot up after you clicked him, there’s the chance that he will form wrong behavioural connections. If you want to have him continue with his behaviour = give the foot without resistance, I would introduce a “keep this up” command.

[sanhestar]

I also remembered a case of grief in our goat herd, involving a well integrated (highest ranking doe, in fact) doe.

Some years back we slaughtered 4 young bucks, born to two does.

The high ranking doe lost 3 out of 4 kids, the other doe 1 out of 3. This must have affected the high ranking one quite severely because she lost rank in the months that followed – fell down to being no. 2 and remained at this position for many months until the now no. 1 doe got sick (foundered). Also, she refused to interact with us for months, became hard to catch, wouldn’t come to be petted – and that from an well socialized and friendly animal.

[sanhestar]

Vicky,

the grieving animal is often the animal that was sold AWAY. For animals that remain in the herd it’s a natural process, that sometimes herd members go missing – killed by predators, chased away (young colts by the lead stallion, young goat bucks) or decided to wander of by themselves.

[sanhestar]

I know for a fact that animals can grieve, sometimes for years.

But I’m not so sure about weaping/crying. From my experience they express grief in the way they carry themselves, live the daily life, project their energy to people who will “listen”, avert eyes, refuse to look at people, work mechanically without noticing the handler. Some will loose rank in the herd or stop caring about maintaining the former rank.

Many years back I participated in several seminars about energy work (body/spiritual energy in the way the chinese traditional medicines understands it) with horses and was struck by the silent grief some of the horses carried from being sold too often, been transported over large distances (the horses imported from Iceland often grieve for their home island), loss of herd mates or handlers they had a good relationship with.

[sanhestar]

well,

one has a long, feathery “cowlick”, the other one a small, round one in the middle of the forehead.

[sanhestar]

I’ve never done it with an animal as big as a horse but have composted lambs and cats and – many years before – horse feet for educational purposes: wanted to have the cleaned bones to show in anatomy classes.

The only problem with the horse feet was that at that time I had a couple of younger girls (18 or so) having their horses stabled in the same barn. The old farmer was ok with me digging in the horse feet in the manure but when the girls found by accident one of the feet they came running screaming “there’s a horse buried in the manure!”

[sanhestar]

Plowboy,

I don’t agree that a tie stall helps with manners or easier handling.

Training helps with manners, dito with handling. And what I as human expect them to be able to do.

We had up to 10 horses, all on pasture (summer) or barn with paddock (winter) and they all where well mannered, could be caught easily and seperately worked, harnessed, saddled (in the barn or on pasture, with the other horses around).

[sanhestar]

the problem is that people who haven’t experienced adverse reactions to vaccinations and downright damage from vaccination can’t relate to the warnings heeded by people who have (and I don’t mean me alone but the hundreds of homoeopaths that treat conditions caused or aggravated by vaccinations).

[sanhestar]

@CharlyBonifaz 5906 wrote:

😀 sorry, but at every single moment your body takes care of a huge variety of pathogens, potential pathogens; it’s our immune system that securely puts them away; definitely more than one ! at any given time…… :rolleyes:
elke

oh yes, but can you tell me if it’s common, f.e. for a dog to be exposed to distemper, parvo, leptospirosis, rabies, kennel cough and hepatitis in the exact same moment?

Yes, we are surrounded by bacteria and viruses and only a fraction of it will make it through the immune defence. And that’s what’s “wrong” with the vaccination scheme: the injection enables a group of highly infectious pathogens at once to break through the immune defence (skin, mucosa, lymph nodes)

But I shut up now – I shouldn’t have posted in the first place (should know better by now than to offer contrary information and food for thought on this topic)

[sanhestar]

oh, that’s a can of worms to open.

There’s sufficient research about vaccination in dogs and cats (and as mammals the results relate to other species, as well), over-vaccination, adverse reactions, vaccination intervals, chronic illness caused by vaccines, etc.

Cattle and other stock normally don’t live long enough to start showing the negative effects of vaccination (or exposure to the heavy metals included in most vaccines) but with a pair of oxen that’s supposed to live a long live……

Research in dogs and cats show that a proper immunization will protect a live long without the need for annual booster vaccination (there are some exceptions, rabies f.e.) and there have been studies in Switzerland on horses that show protection against tetanus (highly feared among horse people) for up to 10 years.

If you want to do your own research, you’ll find tons of information if you google for Dr. Ron Schultz and also Dr. Jean Dodd who both have done extensive research.

That’s the scientific point of view.

Adding to that the homoeopathic point of view, every vaccination is a intense and strong disturbance of an individuals health.

Starting with the point of entrance: vaccines are administered mostly by injection while bacteria and viruses enter via contact with skin or mucosa in most cases (some by bites) and therefore causing an other immune response than vaccines. Vaccines are more like a raid than a knock on a door.

Then the administration/exposure to heavy metals (aluminium and thiomersal are the most common but formaldehyd can also be found in vaccines) and antibiotica (added to the vaccine) for stronger (?!) immune response. Administration of foreign protein (vaccines cultivated on eggs or bovine cells or ape cells), giving reason for the development of allergic reactions.

Next the practice to vaccinate against more than one illness at a time. It’s very uncommon in nature to have more than one pathogen present at a given time but most vaccines contain pathogens against more than one illness.

[sanhestar]

Howie,

you’re right. Johne’s isn’t much of an issue with goats so it almost slipped my mind (still converting from goat health issues to cattle health issues).

the problem with testing, so I heard, is, that the tests aren’t 100% reliable (and there’s a long incubation period, too).

[sanhestar]

I’d ask about the health status of the mother (don’t know if brucellosis or tuberkulosis are still an issue in the US) and her worming status (worm larvae can pass to the calf with the milk). Also what vaccinations she had (antibodies will then pass via colostrum to the calf).

Vaccinating the calfs: not adviseable in the first weeks, for as long as maternal antibodies (from the colostrum) are present they will block antibody development via vaccination (they will attach to the vaccinated virus or bacteria and neutralise it with no chance for the calves immune system to react). Maternal antibodies vanish around at 8-12 weeks of age.

Early vaccination can also cause the undeveloped immune system of the calf to collaps (too much too fast) and some added ingredients (mostly the thiomersal aka quicksilver) can pass the blood/brain barrier in very young animals or cause damage to nerve sheaths (the need a few weeks as well to fully develop and shield the nerves). Calfs should be vaccinated not earlier as 6 weeks old, best age is around 12 weeks.

So you may think about alternative means of protection from infections for the period between 6 and 12 weeks.

And think of doing a fecal exam at around 3-4 weeks old for worms because even a regularly wormed mother cow can carry inactive larvae in her udder (which won’t be effected by normal worming procedures) that become active after birthing and the production of milk.

edit: ask for Johne’s disease (resp. testing)

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