[Scott G]

@Dancing Drafts 34244 wrote:

Tristan, I want to know if you use the tongs with a logging arch as well if so do you have to make any special adjustments or does it stay attached to the log as well as with just skidding. Have you been able to put together any more detailed photos of this tong and any measurements. Also there was mention of trying to fabricate a set of tongs have you had any luck? Thanks, from sunny Arizona, Jay P.

Jay, you’re (we’re) fortunate in working with pondo and the thick/rough bark. Standard skidding tongs, provided they are sharp, work great for pondo, especially if there is significant resistance as opposed to ripping downhill. Skidding yellow-bellied pumpkins like you are on/near the Kaibab plateau is about as easy as it gets for tongs. Just make sure you are hooking short and low enough to get some lift. Tristan’s are awesome, especially for wood/conditions where tongs pop off pretty easily. With our pondo & larger D-fir, not so much an issue. Hopefully I’ll see you at Troyer’s this Saturday.

[Scott G]

Now that I noticed your pic, Grey’s observation is correct. In addition… make the side “planks” on your tree 3-4″ longer, round the corners, and ideally use 2X stock which you can mold with a round rasp to match contours of the burro’s withers and back better. Rigging the tree so it doesn’t ride too far forward and tip, as Grey pointed out, is going to be a bit more of a project. Packsaddles, because they carry a “dead”weight” load, require a breast strap, a britchen and a belly band in addition to the cinch. Also, balancing your panniers/load by weight is critical otherwise your load is going to be constantly side slipping. Lashing that load with a squaw, box, double or triple diamond hitch is also highly desired. A lash rope is usually 25-30″ long and has a special “lash cinch” which has a hook on one end. Have fun & tinker while always making sure you’re partner is comfortable with the rigging and not getting sore.

Keeping the load balanced is a constant. I can’t even begin to imagine how many rocks are at trailheads that started at the other end and have probably made several round trips in order to balance panniers on packstrings. I’ve definitely transported my share :rolleyes:

[Scott G]

If you used a crossbuck tree I would borrow one already made as there are some differences in thickness that mold to body to help keep the front end centered on the withers. When it comes to quality packsaddles it’s all about the tree. Decker-style is great as long as there is some type of tree. Otherwise it’s just a chunk of canvas with planks and iron hoops to hang panniers on. The best I’ve ever worked with we’re the Martin saddles made in the town I grew up in. Huge loads and comfortable pack horses. Good going, just keep tinkering with tree & rigging until its a perfect fit and can handle a load.

[Scott G]

Karl,

Laminitis, as a general definition across the board, would be inflamation and associated pain with possible damage to the connective tissue within and surrounding the laminae of the coffin bone (P3). Pretty broad definition… but that is where the term “founder” gets thrown into describing the several possible etiologies and severity of laminitis.

“True founder”, is caused when there is change in the vasculature and/or available blood supply to the laminae. Blood supplying the laminae becomes stagnant due to localized circulatory dysfunction, usually as a result of endotoxemia and/or sepsis-induced endotoxemia. Endotoxemia can result from the classic feed issues as well as other metabolic conditions/issues. Systemic sepsis is usually the result of severe infection and is basically endotoxemia in its own right.

Endotoxemia will often cause a shunting of fresh blood before it makes it to the area of P3. This causes the present blood to stagnate, as mentioned above, which in turn can lead to micro-clots forming which furthers inhibits circulation. Inhibited circulation in the area then leads to further toxin accumulation which exacerbates the current situation. This scenario then causes the connective tissue of the laminae to break down which may then allow P3 to rotate. The classic founder which everyone fears.

Road founder, on the other hand, is caused strictly by concussive force. Barefoot horses trotting out on hard packed/surfaced roads are classic for this; especially if the horse is normally on soft ground and hasn’t been worked much on a hard surface at an extended gait or for a prolonged period of time. This scenario can easily cause inflammation and associated pain of the laminae. Rotation of P3 really doesn’t come into play with road founder.

All types of founder, at least initially, will present basically the same. Acute severe lameness/very hesitant to weight bear, laying down excessively , and possibly the classic toe pointing.

Basic beginning treatment for all founder is rest, preferably in a sand stall or some other soft base. Shavings don’t count. NSAIDs, typically bute, and possibly an analgesic such as banamine are the drugs to start with. Ace, with its associated beneficial vasodilatory effects, is often used. Always check with your vet though…if your horse is in septic shock you could quite possibly kill him with further vasodilation from a dose of ace. The truth is you should hold off on meds in general if you’re not comfortable or sure of yourself. Bute and banamine’s analgesic effects could mask other signs that could lead to a more definitive diagnosis if there is one.

Recovery is usually swift with road founder and seldom any lasting tissue damage. “True founder” involving severe rotation of P3, not so much…

In light of the above explanation, and it’s validity, I need to be more forthcoming with my past life experiences. I have always been a wood rat, and immersed in the backcountry and forests as a vocation. That being said…

When I was very young and looking for a change from a life of horse packing in the backcountry, I went back to school to become a Vet Tech. I attended Bel-Rea and did my internship at Alameda East. Think “Animal ER” on Discovery Channel. Bob Taylor, Nolan Rucker, and Kevin Fitzgerald were my mentors and who I worked with. After graduation and completing my internship, I went back east to work at Purdue Vet School for a couple of years, then returned to work at CSU VTH for 10 years in critical care/anesthesia. “Large and small I’ve gassed them all” :rolleyes: Literally, within a couple of years after graduation, I realized I needed to be back in the woods living the life I was meant to live. I worked weekends & night shifts while I went back to forestry school and ran a logging operation during the weekdays. Those years were pretty hard on the body & mind, but well worth it…

So Jen, this offers some explanation as to why I was going off on a mini-rant that morning in Athol about how in vet med we dose per #/kilo versus “one size fits all” for human medicine. I remember the “look” you gave me when I said “we” and then mentioned how weight/mass appropriate dosing was used in human anesthesia. The same for MOFGA when you and I struck up the conversation about superficial vs deep digital flexor tendons. Carl, this also explains why I am, in your words, “a walking pharmacy”. :rolleyes:

The fact is that I’ve been making serious money from forestry & logging for most of my adult life, well over 20 professionally. It is how the Vet Med tangent fits into all of that which can lead to confusion for folks. In essence, I was seriously double dipping for about 9-10 years.

In forums such as DAP and at events such as MOFGA LIF & Athol, my thoughts are that bringing that aspect of my past to light detracts from the focus of horse logging & forestry in general. Bring up my formal “Animal ER” life as an aside, and the primary discussion more than likely gets derailed. I didn’t want that to happen at the past events nor this forum for that very reason. Better to keep the focus on jumpin’ stumps! 🙂 Exception being now, …so that folks don’t think I’m pulling facts re: founder out of very dark places. Unfortunately, I’ve spent many a late night with severely foundering horses. :rolleyes:

[Scott G]

Were you riding on the road? Two things, 1) A 4 hour ride where you are moving along, especially up & down hills is a
workout. A horse that isn’t muscled up is going to be feeling pretty
worn down. 2) Trotting on a hard packed road for an extended period of time with an unshod horse is a prime setup for road founder. The observation of them being listless and excessively lying down could easily be a result of both 1 & 2.

[Scott G]

I’ll admit that I am a person who said they would never have a use for Facebook. Now I log on to it pretty much daily. The differences between DAP and FB are real and, for me, each has a valuable role.

FB is great for bantering with folks. I guess I would equate it to going down to the local coffee shop in the morning and chatting with my friends, fellow woodsmen, and horse loggers. The reality is that I don’t have a local coffee shop at the bottom of the mountain and it sure wouldn’t be full of horse loggin’ buddies if it did exist, as there are no other horse loggers in my area. Point is that FB is a great avenue to carry on the normal daily conversations with those in our peer/interest group just as we do with friends and family that are nearby. It is easy to carry on a conversation, share photos, sites, etc. In short, it is dynamic in real time. When used as it is by many young people and socialites, which I am not, it could rapidly get out of hand as they have several hundred to thousands of “friends” and the posts are more akin to frivolous dribble than conversations. Conversely, I have ~130 “friends” who are fellow woodsmen, horseloggers, and folks with the same interests as myself. I count them all as true friends from across the globe. Other than the DAP group there is also a horseloggers roundtable which is a closed group and provides a great venue to discuss what’s up and share items of mutual interest. If you keep a firm grip on your FB acount, which I do, it can be an excellent additional resource which compliments, rather than replaces, other forums such as DAPnet.

DAPnet is a wonderful resource where much of the same networking takes place with many of the same folks. The main difference is that topics are focused, discussed at length, usually in great detail, and are archived. Often when new folks visit the site and search the archives, topic threads become alive once more with fresh valid questions and input. DAPnet is definitely a mentoring and networking format within the context of education and betterment of our culture. DAPnet is the embodiment of our culture and way of life.

In summary, the way I see it… FB is a coffee shop, DAPnet is a community.

[Scott G]

I feel like I’m in the dark with no place to go…

[Scott G]

Very nice, Ed. 🙂

[Scott G]

March, historically, has always averaged out as our snowiest month. This year, driest March on record. February, our second driest month on average, we got dumped on all month long. Due in large part that the air mass was warmer than normal and could carry significantly more moisture from Pacific currents that are also running out of the norm. It was hovering close to 65F at my place yesterday, warmer today, and I live at 8000′ elevation. In short, we should still be buried under a few feet of snow and about 15 degrees cooler on the abnormally warm days at most; averaging around 40F for daytime temps. We had a winter of perpetual ice & snow. All of which has dissapeared with the exception of large drifts and the north slopes. I hope April dumps on us, otherwise all the veg is going to suffer and it could be a mother of a fire season. Climate change happens.

[Scott G]

Thanks, Jean! Received mine on Saturday. Great job on both content and layout!

[Scott G]

Citation: Reprinted with permission from Gregg Caudell’s Horselogger’s Manual, p.47

Gregg got back to me and was more than willing to share. He refers to it as a bob but it looks like a classic go-devil to me. Just a difference in terminology. What it does lack, as compared to Tristan’s, are bunk stakes. Tristan mentioned he used it alot when he was younger for getting poles and fence stakes out in enough volume per turn to keep things efficient & cost effective. Post & poles are the main product I log when I’m going for product, and not service work, because its about the only profitable and marketable material around here currently, given all the bug-kill. Not to mention, harvesting & twitching lodgepole pine for post & pole material, using a single, is by far my most enjoyable & relaxing time in the woods with a horse. Currently, I normally skid 16’s & 24’s (sometimes tree-length) to the main trail/roadside and process them into 8′ & 16′ there. Having the ability to forward directly from the stump, in rough terrain, a greater volume already processed, especially of the smaller diameters, would definitely be a plus.

Gregg’s application is the more traditional (that I’m aware of) use of a go-devil, just getting the butt end of a single large log of the ground. One of the most interesting things about it is how he binds it to the side of the log, cross hitches, and pulls it upright. I saw that maneuver on his video, pretty cool.

[Scott G]

Congrats! Now its time to go to work…:)

[Scott G]

I’m going to e-mail Gregg Caudell to see if he would be OK with me scanning the page of his book that has the diagram of the go-devil he used and then I’ll post it here

[Scott G]

@Tim Harrigan 33215 wrote:

Flat bottomed, full contact stoneboat would probably be better on bare ground, particularly if it is soft. Less rutting, soil compression and tillage.

I’d think the stone boat with a flat bottom would have more friction than the runners on a go-devil. We don’t have that much perpetually soft ground If we are to a point we’re we are rutting up the woods, the horse(s) are as well. When it gets that muddy we just stay out of the woods regardless if its horses or machinery.

Maybe a work sled with runners might be an in between but I can’t imagine being able to maneuver it very well off the main trail.

I cant imagine anything else, aside from straight ground skidding, that would be as agile as a go-devil for working off trail.

[Scott G]

Doug,
I have two 4 footers that suit me very well for all-around woods work. I know some folks on here prefer longer ones though.

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