Scoot Hardware

[Rod]

@dominiquer60 30978 wrote:

I have been told that good rings can be fabricated from old truck springs, and the price is right if you have or have access to old truck parts laying around.

I have found that you have to be careful with the spring steel from old coil springs. If you heat them in a forge to bend the rings together and do not quench them right or anneal them afterward they can be brittle and fail under load. (that is the voice of experience speaking)

[Does’ Leap]

I spent one rainy day fabricating bridle chains, the U-brackets or staples that fit over the runners and one bridle chain catch/release hardware (I was given the other one by a friend). Here is a picture of the old:
[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fdTxWs8HO88/TuvCSL33riI/AAAAAAAABEo/H1jKZ7y-kVc/s512/P1030532.JPG[/IMG]

And the new……………..

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pIaSUjeUE0s/TuvCJEt_0rI/AAAAAAAABEc/MD2x3BWFY-4/s512/P1030529.JPG[/IMG]

This is made with 1/2″ round stock with the needle being 1/2″ eye bolt. It was easier and faster that trying to mimic the old style as I don’t have a forge (although I plan to build a gas forge this winter). It is hard to see in the picture, but I had to heat and bend the eye bolt to accept the chain. It works well.

This is probably something I should have consulted you all about but I drove pins in front of my U-brackets (those are 3/8″ x 1 1/4″ flatbar) to prevent the u-brackets from riding up against my bunks thereby limiting the back-and-forth scoot action of the runners. The pins also provide a place to hang the bridle chains…………
[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YBzPPL0Q2Z4/TuvCX9uUOyI/AAAAAAAABEs/pESBvW4HUzM/s512/P1030533.JPG[/IMG]

Here is a picture of the bridle chain (enough to go under the runners) welded to some old skidder chain (which attach to my U-bracket). Beefy enough Carl? If not, I figure I can add another section of chain under the runners.

Finally, on Carl’s recommendation, I lengthened my pole chains. Long enough Carl? If not, I can lengthen it more. It is adjustable via the clevis that attaches to the ring.
[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8I2ejHdnApI/TuvCeAEZ9yI/AAAAAAAABEw/4hz1FdkHdL4/s800/P1030534.JPG[/IMG]

[Does’ Leap]

I headed out to the woods yesterday afternoon to give it a try. I ground skidded one tree’s worth of hemlock logs to my scoot and loaded them up. Based on a couple of Carl’s tips, it was relatively fast and smooth. I centered screwed a couple of 2x6s on the runners for a better place to ride when the scoot is not loaded.

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Oi5sXTsE7dk/TuvCiL9yDiI/AAAAAAAABE0/tVABSSHL8TE/s800/P1030535.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hitkp_c4Lys/TuvClu0ILVI/AAAAAAAABE4/JnqA_h3LxH4/s800/P1030536.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LeQMZ97DSbw/TuvCpnULb6I/AAAAAAAABE8/zTxumu-sh8c/s512/P1030537.JPG[/IMG]

This load scaled out to 360 feet. The terrain was mostly down hill with a few inclines. The horses pulled it well with ease on the downhill while the inclines got their attention. I think a 500 foot (more with better logs or pine) load would be fine for them given the terrain. In contrast, the 18′ hemlock log on the viewer’s right (on the landing) scaled at 265 feet. This was yarded with my arch in a cradle hitch and required considerably more effort than the scoot load. It is also worth noting that the top 8″x10’log on the scoot scaled out to 20 feet – ouch! That is a lot of weight for such little footage – worth about $4.25 after trucking.
[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EHhcr8F9CUA/TuvCtZiYhZI/AAAAAAAABFA/oBX20guI3q8/s800/P1030538.JPG[/IMG]

Question: Is there a problem having my evener above the pole (currently it is below)? That way I could loosen the front side strap on my off horse, detach the evener from the scoot, unhitch from the pole and start ground skidding. This transition takes a little more time with the evener under the pole.

George

[mitchmaine]

hey george, nice looking scoot. my apologies for butting in here, but your nose ring is too long. it should be sloppy like carl says but be suspended between the two runners without touching the ground. and your draw chain should be long enough to pass through the nose or pole ring before hooking to your evener. that way the scoot turns quick and follows your horses with or without a pole in it. if you did and i am missing it in the photos sorry about that. mitch

[jen judkins]

Thanks for the photos, George….that’s awesome!

[mitchmaine]

whoops, missed that second post. nice load of logs. wait til it snows and see how much you can lug. i might keep hooking under the pole. it has a tendancy to hold the pole up and might even lift the nose of the scoot a tad and help over all, but try it and see, cause i’ve never tried it. i took my scoot apart yesterday and ground the pins down where they ought to be. thanks for the encouragement. mitch

[Ed Thayer]

Nice work George. Truck side chain latch’s also work well for bridle chain quick releases. And there is no fabricating involved.

Mitch the draw chains only go throuugh the nose ring when you are not using a pole, right?

Ed

[Does’ Leap]

@highway 31031 wrote:

Nice work George. Truck side chain latch’s also work well for bridle chain quick releases. And there is no fabricating involved.

Ed

Hey Ed, What do those truck chain latches sell for and where do you buy them?

Mitch, I was hoping to meet you at the logging workshop in MA, but no luck. Would love to see some pictures of your scoot and horses.

George

[Ed Thayer]

George,

Check out his catalog from BB Chain in Milford, NH The chain part are on page 56.

ED

http://cdn-0.psndealer.com/e2/dealersite/clientcontent/chappelltractor/BBC_Cat_08_09.pdf

Here is a better picture of how they work with the side chain

http://www.tirechain.com/side-chain-fastener.htm

[mitchmaine]

ed, i was taught and reminded by lots of old guys to run the chain thru with the pole. the draft should always be at the nose of the scoot cause in a tight turn with a good load and the draft back of the nose, the force goes only to the outside runner and the scoot logs and you could flip. thats how i heard it and i never tested it. sounded like one of those fundamentals to me. the rub is getting it through a five inch ring with a pole in it. a slightly larger ring would work better. i cheat a little by fastening the draw chain to the ring with shackles and letting the ring have the whole pole, don’t know what those oldtimers would think about that, but its the best i could comeup with. i’m thinking of taking 20 inches of 3/4 rod and making a couple 6″ rings.
george, my computer geek neighbor, william, just turned 16 and has discovered girls so i’m on the darkside of the moon when it comes to posting photos. i can download them into our computer but then all goes to a foreign language. i
ll keep trying. mitch

[Carl Russell]

Conversely, I have found that since the pole pivots under the front bunk, if the evener pivots in front of the nose chains the angles will work against each other under load causing changes in pressure against the horse through harness.

The reason we hitch to the draw chain back under the bunks is so that the draft pull is against a strong portion of the runner, and under the load, as opposed to right angle pressure against the nose of the runner. So running the draw chain through the nose ring can actually creat too much lateral pull against the nose of the runner….. at least in my experience

George you only need 15º of movement on that pole. It really shouldn’t be allowed to create a sharp angle….. remember the horses need to be moving forward to have power while turning anyway, so while this will allow better turning of the scoot, yo really can’t expect the same maneuverability as with a bobsled.

I use a spread-chain to hitch to my sled runners instead of a single length of chain. It really doesn’t change the functionality, but I find it easier to hook to with my skidding set-up…. bitch-link. This way the evener actually sweeps with the pole as it pivots under the front bunk.

Also I prefer to have my evener on top of the pole, as if the pull lifts the pole under the front of the loaded logs it can get jammed against a log when trying to turn. I also like to hitch the evener close to the front of the load, giving better lift, and keeping pole length down, so I actually can’t hook the draw chain through the nose ring.

[IMG]http://www.draftanimalpower.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1028&d=1250183807[/IMG]

Carl

[Mark Cowdrey]

@Carl Russell 31043 wrote:

…
I use a spread-chain to hitch to my sled runners instead of a single length of chain. It really doesn’t change the functionality, but I find it easier to hook to with my skidding set-up…. bitch-link. This way the evener actually sweeps with the pole as it pivots under the front bunk.

Also I prefer to have my evener on top of the pole, as if the pull lifts the pole under the front of the loaded logs it can get jammed against a log when trying to turn. I also like to hitch the evener close to the front of the load, giving better lift, and keeping pole length down, so I actually can’t hook the draw chain through the nose ring.

[IMG]http://www.draftanimalpower.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1028&d=1250183807[/IMG]

Carl

Carl,
I think I almost understand this. What is a “spread chain”?
“actually sweeps with the pole as it pivots”, because it is not constrained further forward by the 5″ pole ring? Or?
It looks like you have a short length of chain attached with a clevis to the ring in the center of the draw chain that you then “hook to with my skidding set-up…. bitch-link”. Is that what I am seeing?
It also looks like the hitch point of your evener is just forward of the runner noses. Is that about right?
Thanks,
Mark

[Carl Russell]

A Spread Chain is the chain they used to use for eveners. A center ring with short chains that go to the end of a shaped piece of wood. The pull on the ring is transferred longitudinally against the wood. In this manner a piece of wood can be used to pull a weight that would snap it if it were pulled laterally. In this instance it provides me with a centered hitch point.

Everything else is as you say Mark.

Carl

[mitchmaine]

i still must advocate passing the draw chain thru the nose of the scoot. otherwise the job of turning the nose of the scoot loaded down under a ton and a half of wood on nine feet of it twelve foot runners relys only on the pole. ouch.

go pats

[Does’ Leap]

@Carl Russell 31043 wrote:

#1. if the evener pivots in front of the nose chains the angles will work against each other under load causing changes in pressure against the horse through harness.

#2 The reason we hitch to the draw chain back under the bunks is so that the draft pull is against a strong portion of the runner, and under the load, as opposed to right angle pressure against the nose of the runner. So running the draw chain through the nose ring can actually creat too much lateral pull against the nose of the runner….. at least in my experience

#3 George you only need 15º of movement on that pole. It really shouldn’t be allowed to create a sharp angle….. remember the horses need to be moving forward to have power while turning anyway, so while this will allow better turning of the scoot, yo really can’t expect the same maneuverability as with a bobsled.

#4 Also I prefer to have my evener on top of the pole, as if the pull lifts the pole under the front of the loaded logs it can get jammed against a log when trying to turn. I also like to hitch the evener close to the front of the load, giving better lift, and keeping pole length down, so I actually can’t hook the draw chain through the nose ring.

Carl

Carl and Mitch:

Great discussion here. Like Mark, I am trying to piece it together. I read this thread yesterday morning and took out my scoot trying to put your comments into context. I numbered the comments above to make my questions/comments clearer. These questions are not meant as a challenge to either of you – just trying to figure out how this thing works. Here goes:

#1. Carl, are you talking about Mitch’s scenario here with the draw chain going through the ring on the nose chain? The question in my mind is does the turning happen solely from sweeping the horses in one direction thus scooting the opposite runner forward or should some pressure on the nose chain help facilitate this turn? Is this the crux of the disagreement between Carl and Mitch? Also, based on your picture Carl, it seems that your evener is pivoting in front of your nose chain, no?

#2 If the draw chains are attached to or fed through the nose ring I can see how that would put pressure on the nose but I don’t see the forces acting against each other. For example if the horse sweep left, this would simultaneously tighten the right nose chain and front runner while scooting the right runner foward, correct? Carl, can you elaborate on “how the angles will work against each other under load causing changes in pressure against the horse through harness?”

#3 Carl, are suggesting I have too much play in my pole here? Also, are you talking about 15 degrees using the bunk as the base. If so, it looks pretty close to 15 degrees to me. Irregardless, I dropped two links in my nose chain to tighten things up as I was getting some jackknifing going down hill. Mitch, how tight or lose are your nose chains?

#4 I tried hooking the evener above and below the pole and it doesn’t seem to make much difference in functionality either way as the are both hooked more or less to the same spot under the bunk. Either way it seems one is going to be rubbing up against the other.

Right now I am dropping two links from the end of my trace chains. When I ground skid, I drop only one link so the evener does not ride up on the horses. I plan on shortening my draw chain slightly so that I only have to drop one link on my scoot. That way I can leave my scoot and go right to ground skidding and back to the scoot without fussing with my trace chains.

George

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