Scoot Hardware

[Carl Russell]

#1. Carl, are you talking about Mitch’s scenario here with the draw chain going through the ring on the nose chain? The question in my mind is does the turning happen solely from sweeping the horses in one direction thus scooting the opposite runner forward or should some pressure on the nose chain help facilitate this turn? Is this the crux of the disagreement between Carl and Mitch? Also, based on your picture Carl, it seems that your evener is pivoting in front of your nose chain, no?

I prefer that there be no pressure on the nose chain. In my mind the nose chain has no other purpose than to assist in keeping the pole in front of the load. I never run my draw chain through the nose ring, even when pulling without the pole. When not using the pole a sharp turn can put pressure against the nose of the runner instead of pulling from under the bunk if the draw chain is run through the nose ring. When using a pole I want the nose chain loose enough to swing the pole precisely so that there is no lateral pressure against the nose, and the pull is still directly under the bunk where all the weight is.

As far as the evener, yes it “Pivots” as an evener in front of the nose chain, but the draft to the load actually pivots at the ring in the spread chain.

#2 If the draw chains are attached to or fed through the nose ring I can see how that would put pressure on the nose but I don’t see the forces acting against each other. For example if the horse sweep left, this would simultaneously tighten the right nose chain and front runner while scooting the right runner foward, correct? Carl, can you elaborate on “how the angles will work against each other under load causing changes in pressure against the horse through harness?”

This happens because of the dynamics of the triangular set-up of the draw chain. When making a turn on a pole the evener should be able to sweep a bit off-line from the pole to redirect the draft to the off-side runner. If it is held in-line, then it will lengthenen the distance between evener and neckyoke. This may be a subtle change, but to me it runs contrary to my use and belief in the D-ring harness. So while it may not make a huge operational difference, to me it is the basis for the kind of consistency that I try to practice that underlies my use of draft animals.

#3 Carl, are suggesting I have too much play in my pole here? Also, are you talking about 15 degrees using the bunk as the base. If so, it looks pretty close to 15 degrees to me. Irregardless, I dropped two links in my nose chain to tighten things up as I was getting some jackknifing going down hill. Mitch, how tight or lose are your nose chains?

If you use the line of your centered pole, I think a variance of up to 15º either side would be sufficient. This is not a lot, but it is enough to change pressure from one runner to the other. I actually can’t tell if you have “too” much play, but it sounds like you figured it out for yourself during use.

#4 I tried hooking the evener above and below the pole and it doesn’t seem to make much difference in functionality either way as the are both hooked more or less to the same spot under the bunk. Either way it seems one is going to be rubbing up against the other.

Functionally I like to be able to skid in logs and load the sled, then hitch the horses to the loaded sled. I like to get my evener as close to the load as possible, and I find working the evener in under the pole more difficult than hitching to the draw chain above the pole.

Admittedly sometimes I express my chosen habits as cosmic facts. For this I apologize. For me in my own cerebral world they are. I do realize however that there is a huge degree of art that underlies these practices on a community level. There is no one way, and there certainly are more than one way to skin a cat. I appreciate being able to share my perspective, and sometimes I get detailed and energetic in my attempts to clarify, but in no way do I actually believe that my way is the best, or only way. On my farm, and in my operation this is the way I do it.

Make of it as you wish.

Carl

Carl

[Scott G]

This thread is awesome. Especially for someone like me from an area where well fabricated scoots don’t, and possibly didn’t, exist. That is one of a myriad of reasons I enjoy going back to visit you folks – to see methods that aren’t, or recently haven’t been, used in my region.

On that note – Joe M. made an appeal in this past issue of Rural Heritage to have fabrication/method topics submitted for publication. Could one of you wriite up a short article, or at least a short abstract, with relevant photos. More than likely, he would forward some coin your way to compensate for your time. Yet another way that DAPnet can perpetuate the culture…

Joe checks in here from time to time. Maybe he’ll respond with some feedback…

[Does’ Leap]

Carl:

Regarding chaining down the load using your chaining method: is it important to have the loops that go around your bunks toward the outside of the scoot for larger loads? Those loops tend to drift toward the center (with no load) and I find myself having to arrange them toward the outside edges of the bunks unless I am chaining down one large log.

George

[mitchmaine]

I am not an engineer of any kind. When I made my first scoot, my girlfriends grandfather helped me out to his junk pile and all his old scoot irons. He was an eighty yearold wornout horselogger with a solid reputation for breaking everyones problem horses and working them in the woods. He advised me more than once to pass the draft through the nosering of the scoot. But the tone of his voice was more warning than not and I took him seriously. His voice was a kinda low growl that came up from who knows where. I asked around and the return was always the same. If bob wescott said so, do it. So I passed my draw chain through the nosering of the scoot and never thought about it again. That was forty years ago and now thanks to this thread, I’m revisiting all the notions I have about scoot building. In good faith, I’m passing along the advice just as I received it without bobs tone of voice. But also with a big thankyou. I’ve given and lent out most of my scoots, and the one I’m using is a hodgepodge of parts thrown together that don’t quite fit each other, and I know better,so over the weekend I ground down the pins to fit the bunks and reset the stake pockets and today I started making two proper 6 ½ inch nose rings complete with 3/8 chain. A new pole and I’m set. If I’m going to dish it out I better eat it. I’ll still pass that draft chain out through the nosering, but re-iterate what carl said. Anything I say on this site is just an observation of how I deal with the issue and in no way directions of any sort. Thanks, mitch

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 31071 wrote:

Carl:

Regarding chaining down the load using your chaining method: is it important to have the loops that go around your bunks toward the outside of the scoot for larger loads? Those loops tend to drift toward the center (with no load) and I find myself having to arrange them toward the outside edges of the bunks unless I am chaining down one large log.

George

[IMG]http://www.draftanimalpower.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1028&d=1250183807[/IMG]

I’ll just keep re-using this pic. The chains on my front bunk are set about 4-6″ in from the runners. The way I hook up the load chain, they rarely move from there. I wrap them by taking the ends under the bunk, up in front, over to the back, then under the loop and then to the outside of the load. It’s just the way I do it. I like the wraps out near the edge to hold the load more securely.

Carl

[Ed Thayer]

I have been working on the scoot each chance I get and decided to post a few pictures of my progress. Please feel free to tell me the problems you might see as this is my first scoot build.

ED

https://picasaweb.google.com/107396364480794542661/ScootPictures#

[Does’ Leap]

Hey Ed:

Your scoot looks great. I am certainly not a scoot expert, but I suggest making up some scoot irons instead of pinning down through your runners. My scoot really takes a beating in the woods – riding up over rocks and small stumps, slamming into things etc – and I would be concerned about those pins working lose.

George

[Ed Thayer]

George,

Are you tallking about the bolts holding the shoes on the runners?

Ed

[Mark Cowdrey]

Ed,
Looks good. Where did you get your keyholes? Interesting using them to attach draw chain, gives you adjustment, that’s for sure.
Mark

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 31282 wrote:

Hey Ed:

Your scoot looks great. I am certainly not a scoot expert, but I suggest making up some scoot irons instead of pinning down through your runners. My scoot really takes a beating in the woods – riding up over rocks and small stumps, slamming into things etc – and I would be concerned about those pins working lose.

George

If the bunk pins are bent and countersunk into the bottom of the runner before the shoes are put on they will be as permanent as any other option. Using bunk irons as George suggests allows for the use of narrower runners to save weight and wood, but most scoots traditionally had pins that came all the way up through the runners. I have used this method, and found that most of the where actually occurs in the hole through the bunk, not on the runner.

Carl

[Does’ Leap]

@highway 31284 wrote:

George,

Are you tallking about the bolts holding the shoes on the runners?

Ed

I am talking about where the bunks attach to the runners via the 1″ steel pin. Judging from your pictures, it looks as if the pin is driven right into your runner. If that’s the case, I think those pins will loosen after a while. When I first assembled my scoot, I had to really hammer my bunks down through my pins to get them to sit on the runners. Even after only 2 thousand feet of logs and 5 chords of wood, the 1″ holes through my bunks have worn to the point where I don’t need to hammer them down through the pins onto the runners – they slip right down. With the scoot irons (I think that’s what Mitch calls them), the pins are only wearing on the bunks. This is no big deal as it gives your scoot more slop. Here’s is a picture of a scoot iron I made:

George

[Ed Thayer]

George,

The pins we used go all the way through the runner and are bent over and mortised into the bottom of the runner. This is how my bob sled bunk irons are held in place also. I do like your design as well and think that might have been easier to fabricate. Drilling through the green oak runner was not much fun. Bill and I stole some round stock off an old hay dump rake we found on the stone wall at Bradleys Farm in Athol. The stock was 5/8″ dia. and preety stout.

Mark, the key links came off an old plow frame we had kicking around and will serve well to adjust draw chain length to maximize lift and proper draft.

I need to countersink a washer and cotter pin to hold the bunks to the runner. The runners are 48″ on center and 10′ long and might be a tad close. What are you all using for measurements?

Jen and I will have fun with this and put it to good use I hope.

ED

[Does’ Leap]

@highway 31316 wrote:

The pins we used go all the way through the runner and are bent over and mortised into the bottom of the runner. This is how my bob sled bunk irons are held in place also.

ED

Hey Ed:

That makes sense and seems plenty rugged. I mistakenly thought the pins only went down 4 or 5″ in the runner. I believe my runners are 48″ outside to outside, but I will check later.

George

[Ed Thayer]

The finished product.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107396364480794542661/ScootPictures#5692428252455838498

How long should the pole be? And what do you use to keep the neck yolk from sliding down the pole?

Ed

[Tim Harrigan]

Looks great, Ed. Wish I had one like it!

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