Scoot Hardware

[mitchmaine]

@highway 31377 wrote:

The finished product.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107396364480794542661/ScootPictures#5692428252455838498

How long should the pole be? And what do you use to keep the neck yolk from sliding down the pole?

Ed

hey ed, great looking scoot. solid built and i really like the stake pockets.
ever see a t-pin on a pole of an ox scoot? kinda the same. just drive a carriage bolt down through the end of the pole. long enough to catch the ring on your neck yoke. it ought to be 10 1/2 feet or a few inches longer (depending on your heelchains) from that bolt back to where your evener hooks in. another way t6o do it is lay the harness out on the barn floor. hook the youke and evener in where they should be and pull both ways til it stretches out and measure it, pin to pin.
happy new year, bud. mitch

[mink]

you did a wonderful job ed . now you have to start working:)

[mitchmaine]

Eds question about the yoke and pole got me thinking about harness. The d-ring harness could have been invented for the scoot. I have no way of knowing if it was or wasn’t and it doesn’t really matter. But the two fit together so well. The pole on a scoot isn’t fastened in to the scoot to pull. It has a pin, or bolt or staple in each end that keeps it from sliding back thru the bunk ring or up thru the neck yoke. So its actually held or clamped in compression against the tension provided by the harness. The tighter the tension the better it works. The d-ring harness holds the yoke and eveners together with front and rear tugs joined at the d-ring so that the tension is only on the tugs. The horses are free in the harness to step up into the collar to pull, or step out of the collar and into the brithin to stop or back. It is difficult to “see” this freedom unless you rub your hands down the collar or over their rump to feel. But it is very apparent if you try to snug up your horses in different harness to hold the pole in its compression. In bellybacker, the yoke is snapped into the breast strap and tugs to the evener, naturally. But when you try and shorten up the trace chains, you are drawing up or clamping the horse between its own collar and britchin, and the result is collar,neck, or hip sores. Letting the horses out a little helps their discomfort, but then the rigging goes all to heck. When the horses start the load, the pole falls loose, and the pole clangs around in the yoke ring or the horse snaps her knee on the neckyoke, and when you slow or holdback, the evener lays over the pole and the tug chains drag on the ground. That’s when you realize that the d-ring harness and the wood scoot are brother and sister.
Way back, this husky dealer stopped in my woodyard and lent me a 162 to try for a week. I was using macs. A 60, 81, and a 125. So here’s this orange plastic saw that I was sure was going to break in a day or two, but I used it anyway. It had a hard time keeping up in yard, but chopping wood with it was nice, and I said so. But it wasn’t until I gave it back and went back to the macs that I realized how great that saw really was (when I didn’t have it), and in a month or two I had two of them. Same with the d-ring harness. Youdon’t know what you really have until you are working with something else.

p.s. john morton, if you are listening, happy birthday

[jen judkins]

@highway 31377 wrote:

The finished product.

I love it, Ed! When do you want to take it for a test drive? My place or yours?

[Ed Thayer]

I can deliver it whenever you are ready for it. I put the stakes on this morning and it is all ready to go. Your Boys will have no problem pulling this.

[Ed Thayer]

Mitch,

I have a carriage bolt I could drill down through and install it to hold the neck yolk in place. We will need to hitch the horses as you suggested to get the proper length figured out. It is plenty long I’m sure.

ED

[mink]

a question out of curiousity? does the pole not being hooked solid, being suspended on the chains have any bearing on the pole length? seems like the foward and back movement must have to be considered.

[Ed Thayer]

The first hitches with the new scoot. We loaded light and often, but the horses were capable of pulling more. This was green hardwood and preety heavy just the same. I was very pleased with the horses work today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohmq_M9ihCU&list=UUD980tZE1hiwnW1xeK024NA&index=1&feature=plcp

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

Another quick video to prove that Jen and Scott did not ruin the go devil. 😎

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlskhVmydDk

[Simple Living]

It looks like the scoot worked very well!!! I do have a question about draft angles. Let me start by saying I do not have ANY experience with the D-ring harness. I am always looking at draft angles and lines when looking at pics and videos. When I watched the video I noticed the break in the draft line at the D. Does this become an issue because of extra pressure on the back pad? Or does the design of the D-ring compensate? Again, I am NOT pointing flaws, only asking questions. If this works right, I took a still shot from the video and added highlight to it to illistrate my point. I hope someone can explain. The other thing I “think” I see is the point of draft at the sled appears to be right under the front bunk, which if I am thinking right would give just a little lift to the front of the sled as you are moving along. Comments please!! LOL

Thanks,
Gordon

[Ronnie Tucker]

i find this yankee stuff fascinating.the picture posted above shows the proper angle of pull.the back part of the trace does not make much of a difference.i hope this is right. all i now about this style harness is what i have learned on this forum. i want someone to expound on the whys and when of using the scoot instead of the bob sled front.this has had me wondering if there is any difference. ronnie

[Ed Thayer]

Gordon,
The benefit of the D ring is that all the weight of the pole is transferred to the back pad and not the neck yolk, regardless of the angle of draft from the D ring back to the heel chains. I have no experience with other types of harnesses and was sold on the D ring after watching Les Barden describe it in person.
As long as the angle of draft from the collar to the D is 90 degrees, the rear trace or tug can be at any angle within reason and not affect the comfort of the horse’s neck and shoulder. And comfort of the Horse is really the overall benefit of the D in my opinion.
Draft angle can change with terrain and other variances but should never discomfort the horse if the harness is adjusted correctly. The draft for most of these New England style scoots is typically designed to attach under the front bunk. The actual draft angle is achieved by adjusting the heel chains and the draw chain of the scoot. This scoot has an adjustable draw chain to allow for this.
When I hitched these two horses, It took some time to adjust the harnesses, but when we did, I actually sat on the pole between the two horses and was able to observe the slack from the lazy strap that hangs from the collar to the forward strap that attaches to the jockey stick and there was absolutely no downward pressure on the collar of the horses neck. All of my petite 210lbs was resting solely on the back pad of the team.

Ronnie,
Regarding the preference for a log scoot or single Bob scoot, it is in my opinion just that, A preference. Carl has a whole lot more experience with them than I do and would be a better candidate to explain. But here are my two cents. The scoot will remove all drag from the logs carried and will concentrate the drag to two runners. This may be a benefit depending on the terrain like deep snow or soft ground. The scoot will also keep your logs cleaner when skidding through mud. Scoots that are not steel soled can be Full Moccasin or Half Moccasin and are another preference to the person operating it. That is a whole other discussion in itself.
The Bob is lighter, smaller and much more maneuverable in tight quarters and would be a benefit where space is tight. They are typically shod with steel and are easy to transport. There are so many variables; I could not begin to explain the overall pros and cons. Again I am not an expert on these. This is the first scoot I have built and relied on others here and their designs to complete it.

Ed

[Barw]

I was wondering the same as Ronnie about the difference between the single bob and the scoot.
Ed cleared some of it up.What would the difference be between a shortened bob sleigh and the
scoot.I know my grandfather and uncles just used the bob sleigh.Their bob sleigh had cross chains
attached to the rear runners and turned quite sharply.
Barry

[mitchmaine]

one big difference is that with the scoot you carry the wood, and with the bob you drag it. the scoot is limited to logs 16′-20′ and 20 is pushing it, but with the bobs you can pull tree length pulp and double logs. over in the hills of vermont, coming off the side of a good hill, i think i would like the drag of the wood on the bobsled to keep it stable. over here on the flats, a scoot works great. we used to use a single set of sleds with a long pulp body set on the swing bunk and dragging along behind. you could move a cord and four or five feet on them and they were called a dray or a sloven.

[Andy Carson]

Gordon, the first time I saw a d-ring harness I was “weirded-out” by your same point, that the line from the hames to the d-ring and the line from the d-ring to the singletree are not always parallel. The deflection either above or below the imaginary line from the hames to the singletree has to be counteracted by the weight of the pole, downward pressure on saddle, or possibly upward pressure on the girth. If deflection exists, increased draft will increase the force required to maintain the deflection. These observations seemed at least to me initially, to be important factors which may limit the utility or efficiency of the d-ring system. Further analysis (ask me if interested, but this is going to get detailed and “mathy”) reveals that the force required to maintain a “normal” amount of deflection is pretty small. Very large deflections can require considerable force to maintain (a six inch deflection with a normal working load could require over 100 lbs of force to maintain). I don’t think this is an issue, though, because these large deflections are unusual and the weight of the pole counteracts some of this weight if the force required is in the more typical downward direction. An interesting factor that came up in this analysis is that there is a slight draft disadvantage to a set up with a deflection. The animal is essentially pulling against itself. This is a very very tiny amount of wasted force though, amounting to a maximum of 3% more force than is required in a straight pull if the deflection is 6 inches off the theorectional “perfect” straight line through the d-ring. Of course, this a false comparison because attempting this types of pulls without a d-ring the pull would force the collar up or down so dramatically the horse probably wouldn’t be comfortably anyway. Every time I think about the system I am impressed with the design.

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