Scoot Hardware

[Scott G]

@highway 31425 wrote:

Another quick video to prove that Jen and Scott did not ruin the go devil. 😎

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlskhVmydDk

Say what!? 🙂

[mitchmaine]

andy,
i know it would only be an educated guess, but would you say from your knowledge of how the d-ring harness works, that it was designed by an engineer, or was it invented by a farmer logger? i know or guess that what we are looking at might be the tenth generation of the original concept and probably quite different, but i have always wondered at the history of that particular harness. it was the only harness around here growing up so it had no name. it was just harness or state prison harness, and the first time i heard it called by name was four ring harness. no one objected to the name but probably cause every one new what we were talking about. the first time i was aware of other harness might have been in an early sfj with illustrations of harness. i remember there was a boston backer, and others but mostly remember that there was no new england harness. that got me asking around the old timers about where did it come from and how long has it been around and the answers were always “it didn’t come from nowhere, its always been from here” that kind of stuff. i did get a set of tugs once in a pile of stuff. tugs and rings only. the tugs were handsewn triple ply and the rings were handforged, but it didn’t mean anything cause people were still blacksmithing at that time. who knows? sure would like to know more about the history of that stuff.

[Andy Carson]

Mitch, I would guess a logger or farmer, but what the heck do I know??? I am really only guessing that because I would guess engineers were pretty rare 10 generations back. Also, I think that New England would be a place where you might think it could get invented. It would likely need to be new world so the inventor would try a new design during ten generations ago (forgive me European friends -you all actually seem more creative now than many Americans). I would have also guessed that it would come from a place that was very hilly, as the advantage of keeping the line of draft true would be most advantageous there. I would have also guessed it would from a place where farms were smaller, requiring a harness that be used for many tasks, where a little more time fitting a harness wouldn’t get obnoxius. I am not saying that I think it would take alot longer to put on a D-ring, but I bet it takes a bit longer to get them adjusted to each individual horse initially. If you were pulling a combine harvester out west with 40 horses, you probably wouldn’t want this harness… Also, I would guess a regional invention would probably get preserved in a place that is not absorbing thousands of immigrant settlers, who would likely opt for the mass produced option. I think with all those qualifications, you have to end up somewhere New England or Appalachia, and I think the people in the more southern or western parts if this range probably had other things to worry about than horse harnesses ten generations back. It makes you wonder how many other regional adaptations have been lost throughout the years… I am glad we are writing this stuff down… Perhaps we should make a special category for “old and regional” tools and techniques we stumble upon (even if the poster doesn’t think they are useful) because they may just be better than someone first suspects. Now I have a tough question is for you, Mitch: Would you rather have something made by a logger farmer or an engineer?

[Baystatetom]

It seams this discussion has bounced all over, so I will through in a another conversation as well. Other then saving wear on the runners is there any pros or cons to having a steel shod scoot. Does it drag easier with steel? I have the steel parts for several old sleds/scoots and have had rebuilding them on my to do list for a while now. Now that my team is getting big enough to pull one it is getting closer to the top of the list. Seams like they used to use cast iron on the runners, or at least that is what I am guessing the old ones I have drug out of the woods are. My grandfathers old scoot hanging from the rafters of the old equipment shed appears to be too dry rotted to use. I am thinking of using it as a template and steeling all the hardware off it. However it is not steel shod.
Any advice is greatly appreciated
~Tom

[mitchmaine]

my apologies too for steering the thread askew. that said, tom, i would take andys logic line, and guess that the wooden shod scoot is a primitive farm tool made on the farm by the farmer and wood was abundant and steel was specialized and even tho probably most farms had a smithy, scoots could be a quick cheap alternative. that would be my guess.
when i first heard the term mocassin runner i thought the fellow talking was pointing at the steel runner of the sled. he said rounded, and i thought he was describing the hand forged hammered out steel runner. later someone else straightened me out and pointed out the difference between the “village sled” which was the same thickness runner as the steel runner. and rode around on packed snow all the time and didn’t need to be heavy up top or worry about not sinking through heavy deep snow.

andy, great question. i don’t think there was any judgement in the first question. i think the way i work, like here on the website, is if i hear a good peice of advice, and it seems to make sense, i try it, and if it works, i do it. if it doesn’t work for me, i most likely drop it, but allow that it may work for someone else. and i like your idea about sounding out and chasing out the old regional tools and so on. mitch

[Does’ Leap]

@Countymouse 31485 wrote:

This is a very very tiny amount of wasted force though, amounting to a maximum of 3% more force than is required in a straight pull if the deflection is 6 inches off the theorectional “perfect” straight line through the d-ring. Of course, this a false comparison because attempting this types of pulls without a d-ring the pull would force the collar up or down so dramatically the horse probably wouldn’t be comfortably anyway. Every time I think about the system I am impressed with the design.

Interesting discussion and comments……..Andy, Just curious, at what theoretical point are you measuring the deflection? Mitch, what’s the final verdict on your moccasin scoot runners?

George

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 31514 wrote:

Interesting discussion and comments……..Andy, Just curious, at what theoretical point are you measuring the deflection? …

Thinking about the effect of deflection of draft at the point of the shoulder which can affect the balance of the horse as it lifts and moves forward, especially if that angle can change (not D-ring), versus deflection at a point behind the shoulder (low center of gravity) where the weight of the animal can easily sustain the additional lateral pressure, while the point of draft at the point is stable (D-ring) for consistent applied force, really drives home the creative thought behind the development of the D-ring harness. I believe the horses learn to use the D-ring harness to their advantage when moving weight, similarly to the way they learn to trust their footing when caulked up.

I can’t say anything bad about other styles, as Mitch says I never knew there were any other styles because the D-ring leaves very little to be desired.

Carl

[Andy Carson]

@Does’ Leap 31514 wrote:

Interesting discussion and comments……..Andy, Just curious, at what theoretical point are you measuring the deflection? Mitch, what’s the final verdict on your moccasin scoot runners?

George

I was calculating deflection at the D ring itself, and modelled it as a rope from point A (the hames) to point B (the singletree) with a 240 lb pulling force and an additional force X applied at the D-ring to cause a deflection of between 0 and 6 inches.

[mitchmaine]

Hey George,
I have only put the moccasin on my wood shod scoot and sap sled. Twice on the sap sled and once on the woodscoot. Its been about seven years though, and results are excellent. Not a study at all, but gut feelings. The shoes are wider than the runner, and I thought the greater area would rip the shoes off, but under lots of weight they seem to stay put. The bearing is of course only two inces wide on the extreme bottom and with the edges beveled and relieved, turning is maybe even easier. But it’s a snap to do. Flip the scoot over and ten seconds and a sharp saw later, done. I know john plowden made a sled with and for brad Johnson. And I saw pics on face book, but can’t remember if they were moccasin or not. But it sure was a nice job. Have to wait and here what brad has to say.

Carl makes a great point. One I’d never even thought about. Any ten men or women running the same saw, will start and run it differently due to size, shape and strength of the individual. So we create the harness (tool), and each horse works in it and finds his spot or way to use it with the most comfort and ease he can find or that we offer in harness adjustment. The minute you said it, I could see all my different horses, and the different ways they worked, give them a link, what ever it took to coax a little more out of them. Neat. I really like this forum.

[Gabe Ayers]

The runners on my new bobsled are moccasin style, and they work nicely so far, but have to wait for deeper snow for the final say.
-Brad

[Jay]

I have two sleds, one straight runner and the other a cross chain moccasin runner. I use both for sleigh rides and the difference in new deep snow is substantial. The moccasin “floats” it’s way along (also threads it’s way beautifully through curves and trees) and the straight runner sled (with only front bob steering) cuts through and also has taught me to “swing wide on the corners and take every inch I have” so as to not have the back end drag in off the track later in the season and sink the load. The moccasin runner sled came with straight runners and I rebuilt it about 5 years ago – I love the wider runners. They pull more easily with a load then the straight runners in any amount of fresh snow, while on a packed trail there isn’t much difference – The conditions make such a difference as to how hard the pulling is.
The straight runner sled also has a pole brake- when the horses hold back, a steel claw inside each front runner digs into the snow/ice. The more they hold back, the more it digs in. a beautiful invention. I can take that sled heavily loaded down any hill I have without the horses having to hold the whole load themselves. If the trail has worn tracks for each horse/runner, then it won’t slide sideways either and the claws work to create a ridge that helps with the tracking too. Has anyone else seen or used one of these pole brake sleds? Jay

[mitchmaine]

jay, i have a sled with a dog bolted through the rear runner. it looks like a pulp hook and drags behind the runner and dogs in if you stop in the middle of a hill and holds the sled. or it can be flipped up out of the way when not needed. but it doesn’t sound like what you are describing. sure would like to see a photo of that one if possible. thanks, mitch

[Does’ Leap]

@Carl Russell 31515 wrote:

I believe the horses learn to use the D-ring harness to their advantage when moving weight, similarly to the way they learn to trust their footing when caulked up.

Carl

Interesting comment. I am enjoying watching the horses as they become more familiar moving wood with the scoot and learning to use it to their advantage. I find the scoot an elegant, dare I say beautiful, way of moving wood. It whispers through the snow and hard pack (and plows through the January mud:confused:).

[IMG]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-V8gFt-YiVMY/TwjB1CLH-wI/AAAAAAAABFk/oWme5PCqqJ4/s800/P1030559.JPG[/IMG]

I have recently started blocking firewood off of my scoot. I block the top tier and throw the wood off the side of the scoot and then roll my bottom tier onto the “bed” of blocked wood and cut it up. No need to cut part way through the logs, roll with a peavey and finish up as you always have wood below to protect your saw. Anyone have deaf horses from years of running the saw around them?

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lJS8KOb2ywk/TwjCE9njnEI/AAAAAAAABF0/fm3PeOVjnw8/s800/P1030563.JPG[/IMG]

George

[Ed Thayer]

George,

I have often wondered the same thing regarding deaf horses; mine will stand right next to you if I let them while I run the saw. I think they are intrigued by it.
I like you pictures, good loads of wood. How far are you skidding to your landing? Is it hilly or flat?

ED

[Does’ Leap]

Ed:

I have been bucking saw logs behind my horses for a while, but cutting firewood is new. I started feeling a little guilty. On the flip side, I am at least 10′ away from their ears and usually more as I cut toward the end of the log. I guess this helps some.

These hitches went about 2200′ on hilly (mostly down hill) land. I have one sustained hill coming up to the landing on the picture and my barefoot horses scramble on that hardpacked hill. Other than that, they do OK.

George

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