strange d-ring predicament

[wild millers]

I have read on this forum before that instead of tying your horses to a tree while working in the woods you should secure them from behind. I understand the concept but didn’t quite figure why tying them off wouldn’t be a good idea and it has always worked fine for me. Usually I tie them off while remaining hitched to the arch, with halters on under their bridles, cut for an hour or so then return with the arch to yard the logs.

This morning I tied them like any other time and was cutting for only about 20 min. before reaching for the team again. As it so happens, the near horse was facing a tree and tied off a little shorter, the off horse had no tree in front and was tied off a little looser.

I’m still not sure how it came about, but somehow the near horse must have dropped his head to scratch. When I came back to them, he had the spring clip at the end of the side backer straps, that holds the outer ring of the jockey yoke, over his bottom teeth and firmly planted in his gum pulling forward against his teeth with all the tension of the tight rigging of the d-ring holding it fast. For all my weight I couldn’t budge it. It should be noted that the off horse had stepped forward at some point and this seemed to be putting more tension on the situation though I didn’t dare move him for fear of putting more pressure on the others mouth. So with blood and drool everywhere, the near horse stood still and quiet as an angel while I had to fully release all four side side backer straps, inside and out (two on each horse) and then with quite a bit of encouragement I was able to get the hook out of his mouth. It’s also worth saying that my arch has a lot of tongue weight so I do keep the hitch rigging very tight. These hooks on my harness are large, spring loaded and quite blunt. The spring was on his teeth and the blunt hook was actually penetrating his gums.

After re-tensioning the hitch, we turned towards the barn and went straight home, he drove fine and seemed extremely patient for the rest of the morning, it was as if he was really looking to me for direction after such a very confusing (for him and me) situation that must have been quite painful. A closer look at the barn showed a bit of a cut on his gums but perhaps not as serious as I had originally thought. Bleeding seemed to stop almost immediately.

Has anyone ever had a similar experience? Am I right in now assuming that the reason not to tie off your animals in the woods is for safety reasons only? On that note, how does one securely fasten off to a tree from behind with a choker chain that could fall loose? I am often working up to 100 yards from them when they are tied off. They have always behaved very well in this situation, even with large trees dropping, but I hate the idea of something spooking them when I am so far off and having them knock a choker chain loose. I don’t really have much other choice in management since I work alone in the woods with this still young team and our woodlot is quite a ways from the house, so especially in winter with lots of snow, I need the team to get me and all my tools to the woods.

Side note- how do you regular horse loggers work in the woods with 2 feet of snow? Tough going.

Thanks -Joel

[Carl Russell]

I often hook my team, or single with a choker, either on the cart or from an evener. This does have some risk for sure, but I have not personally had a choker come unhitched, though I have witnessed it happen with another team.

I started doing that as my horses are trained to stand with no contact, and being attached to a tree gives me some security that they will not end up under a tree I am falling. I will often cut a hitch, hook up, skid out onto the trail, stand the horses and go back to it another hitch, leaving them hooked standing in the skid way. That way I can get into a rhythm of skid, hitch, stand, cut.

This does not answer the real question about tying off. As you found out it is not a good practice to tie off horses while still hitched in harness. I do not keep halters on when in harness, but will unhitch from the cart, separate the horses, unbridled, halter and tie off. This often seems like too much for some folks, but it really only takes a few minutes, and really is the safest way to tie off in a working situation.

Also, we have had another thread recently about these clips catching in horses’ mouths. I use the old style downward facing holdback hooks, but it seems that others are using these side facing spring clips. I think it makes sense to use a different neck yoke with downward rings and hooks.

Carl

[wild millers]

OK I located the other thread that George started recently. I apologize for such a similar post now that I see it. Good comments and feed back there from what also sounds like a surprising and scary situation.

My side facing spring clips are what came stock with this harness I had made 2 years ago. I have seen these down facing hooks before but not thought about them or their differences. I like the idea of switching over, it will mean that I would have to change all of my neck yokes…a process that will have to take some time.

In the mean time I will be unhitching and tying off properly if needed on the job from now on.

[wild millers]

Actually it would only mean switching the design of the jockey yokes not all the neck yokes…

[Brad Johnson]

I use the old style hooks that face downward, for the reasons stated above. I have found that this style hook is far less prone to snagging rigging or horses mouths. For a time I was in the habit of choking a tree and then hooking the arch to the chain around the tree – the “Amish Parking Break.” However, when I was working on a cooperative job with Carl and several others one of my geldings bucked because of big, bad flies and the chain came off the arch. The result was a runaway.

So, I now never use that strategy. Instead, in the few cases when I do tie them, I use halters and clip lines to attach them both to a tree. I have never had an issue with this strategy. To some extent I disagree with Carl here, as when I am working every day in the woods I want to have the halters under the bridles so I can tie when necessary. I certainly do not want to be taking off the bridles and putting halters on each time – a waste of time for me. I know many folks are not fans of having halters under bridles, but provided that there is no discomfort for the horse this is an excellent strategy. In my mind, there is no good reason not to run a halter, as there are many circumstances where it is handy and promotes safety for both the teamster and the horses. That said, in most cases my horses just stand there while I cut or work away from them. With enough work, most horses will recognize that when they are left to stand they should take full advantage of that time to rest. And, when they won’t, I tie them as described above.
-Brad

[Donn Hewes]

It seems that in most jockey yokes I have seen you can clip off the ring and slip the downward facing hooks right in. Might just need to reem them out a little. Also I believe Meader’s supply sells the downward facing hook. While not everyone needs to or wants to switch, I do think the se hooks are better.

Of course I have no real experience with leaving horses in the woods while I cut. I have run a saw a few times with them in the woods, but that is different that having a regular system. As Carl often mentions there is some element of risk with each of these systems. My Amish nieghbors have the typical team that will stand all day, corn choppers, belts, anything. Last winter they ran out of the wood lot and all the way home, a good mile from one farm to the next. He said it was because they were cold! I got to weld the arch back together.

I was showing some one how to tie a horse to a wall the other day. I pointed out the difference between tieing them long, short, high, or low. And the benefit of different knots. I think tieing a team in the woods while still hooked seems like a small risk, but not zero. I would look for a good sized tree and put it dead center in front of them. I would tie them high (+40″) with just enough rope to keep them safe if one fell or lay down. This system would not be fool proof. I would work carefully to built a teams ability to be tied this way.

Hooking a choker to a tree and the back of a cart is very different to me. It could be very secure and safe, but I would worry about horses moving around, or testing the hitch. A horse that tests a tye rope is reinforcing something they should have already learned “tied means tied”. The team hitched to some thing behind them with no one home is different, I would prefer that they never move or test the system, but if they do I am not sure what I am teaching at that point. “hooked to something solid means whoa?” I never taught them that.

I am just thinking out loud, taking the horses to the wood presents some real challenges. I am luck to be able to cut with the horses in the barn and skid separately. I got out of the habit of using halters under bridles and prefer the bridles that way, but I often still encourage other to use halters that way. In the last couple years I have had a three bridles made with halters built in. I like them a lot.

[Does’ Leap]

I regularly bring the horses out to the woods and cut b/c I can bring all my gear close to where I am felling. If I am logging with an arch, I prefer to back the arch to a tree and hook the tree to the arch with a choker. If I am logging with a bobsled or scoot, I will do the same – backing the sled/scoot to a tree and securing the bunk to a tree with a choker/grab combo as there is no slot as there is on the arch. I prefer this to tying their heads. It is not ideal, but I feel like if something bad happened there would be less damage compared to having their heads tied. I never attach the horse/s to a tree via a loose evener or single tree as I fear they could get tangled in the rigging if things went awry. If I am ground skidding, I will tie their heads.

I don’t like having halters under their bridle and I also don’t like having to take off the bridles to halter and tie them. I had a combo bridle/halter made which has worked well. Here’s a picture and the link to the original thread….

As far as logging in deep snow, no tricks that I know except toughing it out (I believe Carl’s expression is “bulling it”?) My productivity can be cut in half in deep snow compared to frozen ground with minimal snow, especially in the first few days before my skid roads are well packed.

George

[Does’ Leap]

Another picture of the halter bridle and the aforementioned link…..

Bridle Halter Combo

[wild millers]

Several different perspectives here are all helpful to read about. Thank you for the thought out responses.

Donn, I had thought of that option for slipping the down facing hooks into the side strap of the jockey yoke instead of the ring. I wasn’t able to picture the size of the hooks though and wasn’t sure if they would fit or work well that way. Have you ever seen anyone use this method?

I agree with Brad that I don’t have any problem leaving halters on under bridles and my horses have never shown any discomfort from this. I don’t do it for any field work but working in the woods is such a different environment than any other kind of farming. I guess it provides more straps to get hooked or caught on things but it seems to me if a halter is going to get hooked on something then the bridle would have been hooked anyway.

That said though, after reading about George’s experience with the clip in the mouth and a few other people voicing having this same issue, I will not tie my horses in the woods again until I switch over my hooks. I have also experienced those hooks catching bits and even driving lines during regular field work in the summer.

Following Donn’s line of thought I have never felt quite comfortable enough to chain from behind for similar reasons that he stated, especially after hearing Brad’s story.

I like how clean and simple George’s Bridle/halter design is, the pictures were very helpful to understand what you were talking about. Though I still think I would rather the halter under the bridle. One thing that would worry me is if the horses were tied with this design, and had a panic moment for whatever reason, I think the halter is built more for heavy restraint to get them past the initial fright (since were talking about the teamster not being at the lines for this moment). Bridles, not being built for restraint, could part and become a real problem.

I have made the mistake in the past of tying a bridled horse (in the barn) by the ring on the side of the bridle (not the bit ring) rather than switch over to the halter or to clip into the halter if there was one on underneath. For who knows what reason (possibly a loose chicken flew up into the manger) The horses backed in fear and tore the crown off of both of their bridles at the same time.

As of tomorrow we will have around 40″ of loose powder in our woods. I don’t think I can be productive in those conditions no matter how “bullish” I’m feeling. Time, I think, for me to switch over to some projects in the barn/house and possibly take some off farm carpentry work.
-Joel

[karl t pfister]

This thread seems to have a couple of directions ,pardon me if I’m outa line Mule Man, I think the hooking a sled, forecart etc to something solid has a long history especially in the sugaring with horses era. when the sugarhouses were remote from the farm and the sapsled was the way home, the horses waited till the boiling was over to go home. I think they were being taught to wait for the teamster to “be” there before they were released from “something solid that means whoa ” ?

Mr Russell you may remember mr Illsley from up by you . He told me of a team that tried to go while hooked to an iron ring in a barn yard, one horse fell trying to go and the team never tested it again. Sometimes those one time lessons go better than other times.

I do think the risks are real with all these “remote keyless operating systems ”

[Carl Russell]

Lots of great perspectives here.

I like the looks of the halter/bridle, but I share the concern that it could break, and then no control.

I have not used hatters under my bridles for more than twenty years, and have never had a situation where I felt that would have made the difference, including wrecks, and spilled horses, where both had to be unharnessed to be freed, righted, re harnessed, and re hitched.

What I say is that I believe the safest way to tie a horse in the woods is unhitched, and with a halter, under the bridle is your choice, but what I do, like Brad says, has much more to do with the degree of risk I am willing to take in my daily work.

I use the hitched to a load, or tree method, because my horses will stand until I pick up lines…. Is that fool proof? No. I have hitched a single horse, and team by the evener to a choker on a tree, and never had a problem. Is that fool proof? No.

I used to drink and drive, and 99.9% of the time I had no problem, but the night I crossed the center line at an intersection was the worst night of my life….. But I did have to live with my choices. I have had incidents with my horses that I was not proud of, and may have made better choices….. And have had to live with the consequences.

I have had horses that I would leave standing next to the pole while I skidded logs to the sled with the other, and I’ve also had wanderers. I do often carry halters and ropes with me, and if I get concerned about the risk, I take the time to put the halters on and tie them off.

Sometimes we don’t know what the risks are that we are facing until we experience them. Just be prepared with some reasonably fail-safe system at your disposal.

As far as deep snow…. I have spent days breaking trails in deep snow all to get out a couple hundred feet…. Which only reinforced to me the value of having many things that need to get done. However, laying out trails that go to the back of a lot will work all season long, as does traveling trails that are yet to be worked on. Felling trees toward the trail will make for a lot of brush to clean up, but sometimes the bole, and subsequent skidding, will pack down access to areas without having to bull through, by traveling where you felled the tree.

A few years ago I bought an old JD 1010 crawler specifically for clearing trails in deep snow, because we seem to be getting late-loaded winters, with huge accumulations that just can’t be competed with.

I just love being part of such a diverse and experinced group of folks who can compare notes about this. And I do remember Mr Ilsley. Horses used to come dime a dozen, and I knew quite a few older guys who figured the horse will either learn or hurt themselves…..

Carl

[Mark Cowdrey]

Great thread.A few notes:
. Joel, I like my rigging as compact as possible and I have clipped directly into the “U” that holds the ring on a typical jockey yoke. I learned this from someone else (Another geezer on this site.). However, it is a very tight fit to get the harness hook in, tight enough that it lends itself neither to convenience nor safety. So I removed the “U”‘s from the end of the neckyokes and heated & reworked them to be longer, with round cross sections where they protrude beyond the wood to reduce wear on the harness clips. I resecured them with (probably) 8/24 or 32 bolts with the ends cut & peened over the nuts. That worked well for me.
I have since made my own neckyokes, based on the design I got from George. In my opinion my modifications are simpler with no sacrifice in functionality.
Speaking of keeping rigging straight, George’s photos reminded me of something. I use a very similar lever bit. I usually clip in the ring and occasionally in the first drop. I found the lines were getting caught up or snagged on the lever more often than I wanted, so I cut the levers down by one notch. It has made a significant difference in keeping things “straight” and, for me, if I need that third notch I plan to leave the horses in the barn.
And joining the chorus, safety is about managing risk. When I am in the woods with my horses, particularly if it has been weeks or months, I will tie their heads while cutting. I run halters under bridles. I am not a professional logger. After they get more comfortable, and more tired, I may leave them untied, particularly if I can do it with them facing away from the landing/barn. It all depends.
And managing winter work. If I have to dig out a tree to cut it down I am going to find something else to do. Maybe catch up on my DAPNet postings. That is one of the great benefit of having a diversified operation, including a gainfully employed wife!
I really appreciate this community. Stay safe all.
Mark

[Mark Cowdrey]

Oh well on the photo.
M

[Does’ Leap]

Joel, Regarding neck yoke clip safety, I have been clipping the side straps into the hames while ground skidding – seems like a safe way to keep them out of the way.

Marc, I have never had my lines caught on the lever. I usually hook one down from the ring. I do run my lines on drop rings clipped to my hames (double clip with a ring on one end). I wonder if that makes a difference?

Regarding excess snow, I have learned to push a little harder when the going is good and, like others, find other things to do when the snow is too deep.

George

[Mark Cowdrey]

George,
I use drop rings as well, probably has more to do with how much “head fussing” by the horses that I put up with.
Also, And I think we may have plowed this ground before, the “down hooks” that are available from Meader’s are heavy, clunky, sharp-edged and inelegant as compared to older ones I have and have seen. There is a “DAPNet branded” product/project for someone with access to forging or casting to take on!
Mark
I’ll give the photo another try:

[Author]

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