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Gabe Ayers
KeymasterI wanted to go back to something Emerald Isle Simon said about working at thinning plantations and then not getting to actually harvest the improved resources later.
If one gets paid fairly for contract thinning then that may be worth doing. We have never been able to get paid fairly under any system to work in an industrially managed monoculture planting.
In our area there are thousands of acres of eastern white pine planted on Christmas tree, nursery spacings of about 6-8 feet. These plantations are all based upon recommendations by the public forester, meaning the state forester. It is amazing that this is still frequently the recommendation of public foresters. It does provide increased carbon sequestration on marginal agricultural land and is probably better than just being abandoned agriculturally. Most of this land is abandoned pasture, which if mowed, limed and reseeded would be good grazing.
But, basically this is like pimping your land out to industry that treats the land like a prostitute. One should be suspicious of anyone offering to give you “free” seedlings for such mono culture plantings. They give the “free” seedlings because they are the only market for the eventual product. Like most situations in life there are no free lunch’s or seedlings, it is a strategy to use your land without paying much for it. These plantations are extremely difficult to thin with the trees being so close together that you can’t get them on the ground easily. We often just recommend that the land owner girdle the worst specimens reducing the basal area to a spacing that will allow the residual to mature to a saw log size, quality and value. It is sad, because most of the new landowners are lead to believe (by real estates agents, conventional foresters) that they have a timber value in these plantations, but it is only able to be harvested mechanically (clear cut) and that doesn’t meet their objective of maintaining a forested condition. So often we just have to leave them to their own decisions about how to manage this industrial planting. The plantings upon maturing to a certain point basically self thin, but the growth rate is very low and it is a slow process to restoration to a true healthy forested condition. Also single species setting are prone to infestations by insects, fungus and diseases that prey upon that particular species. I have seen entire landscapes of southern yellow pine wiped out by pine bark beetles after 35 years of growth and the landowner not being able to get them harvested or salvaged by commercial conventional methods because there were some many tracts in this condition that there weren’t even enough mechanized harvesters available to save any of the wood.
So my point is that we are best suited to developing our own niche place in the natural resource management “business” and not work for industry at all.
Once I was setting on my log arch resting the team and could see, hear and actually smell a conventional job (rubber tired skidder, clear cut) going on over on the next ridge. It was a terribly dry time and the clouds of dust were visible for miles. It brought me to the thought of the play on words of that job being and example of the “in dust drill” work that was my competition to access to the natural resources…..You may have to understand a slightly southern accent to get that joke….
Keep working where ever you can, but put a fair value on your superior services and keep looking for the best opportunity to get paid what your services are worth. When industry recognizes and rewards me for the quality of my work and pays accordingly, I’ll work for them. But that is not likely given the economics of short term returns, high capital investments, interest payments and no vision beyond the next shareholders-stockholders meeting.
KeymasterHey Kristin,
Would you post a photo of your dog on the other farm animals spot in the photo gallery. We would enjoy seeing a farm animal other than our draft working stock.
Yep equipment is always the bottleneck for all of us trying to live gently from the land in an economy that is about casual consumption of everything.
Plowboy is in New York State.
KeymasterJim,
Man I bet it is cold to work outside there these days! It is really cold here with a crisp wind that hasn’t stopped for about three days now.
Some thoughts about conventional forester’s are: If conventional forester’s had the answer to sustainable forestry then no body would be asking the question of: what is sustainable forestry ? They would already be practicing it. Of course they have all sorts of claims about growing more timber now than in 100 years, (read dominant paradigm propaganda), but the real truth is reflected in the quality of the lumber being produced from what is being harvested and processed. The quality on a per board foot percentage on the best logs is going down. There is a lower percentage of clear lumber from butt logs today than there was 40 years ago. That information isn’t widely talked about because it would be a serious indictment of the conventional practices. I know some will say that all sites have been high graded and we are taught in forestry school that the only prescription for a previously high graded forest is even age management or clear cut to let the shade intolerant species regenerate them selves by having full sunlight on the forest floor. That in my experience is an industrially funded modern myth. But frankly I have worked at this for thirty years and personally had rather work on a previously high graded site than a previously clear cut site. Particularly if I am sawing the logs also. I know which one will yield more clear boards per log. I have worked in both woods using the same silvicultural prescription and prefer the one that didn’t start over from the ground level up responding to the last harvest treatment.
If one can get hourly rates that will pay them better that’s great. I think Tim Carroll up in Minnesota has done some of this kind of paying work for well to do landowner’s that want their woods cleaned up. I guess this means cutting pulp wood away from residual saw material. A day rate is good to if you can get a landowner that can afford to invest in there forest. In Appalachia people expect to get paid for anything that is removed from their property.
Landowners that are well educated about forestry issues always want our services and the most aware ones, with vision, will do whatever it takes to have low impact restorative forestry practiced, even if they have to pay for it themselves. It is their natural capital system, they have many good reasons to invest in making it worth more in the future.
I think an interesting thing in this discussion is that most of us work for about the same money, which is never enough.
It is never enough when the value of the restorative forestry services are not fully accounted for in the economics. We will come to a time when the value of those services is quantified and paid for by someone, most likely the landowner, maybe with some eventual subsidy from the carbon storage capacity of the forest from the public or government.
The main point is that animals are not competitive with machines on a production basis, but are far superior from the environmental basis. It is more different than apples and oranges, it is more like the difference between prey animals and predators.
The information, science and common sense observation is becoming more apparent everywhere – that we have to do things differently in the natural world. Our culture (DAP) offers the best method for our future, it is only a matter of time before we prove it and began getting paid for the “wholistic” value of our services. Wholistic being a play on the words whole and holistic.
I truly appreciate all the efforts by everyone working animals in the woods or on the farm. Even part time or partial animal power is a blessing when practiced by anyone to any degree. Thanks for sharing what you all are doing. We are not alone, although scattered somewhat – we are not alone.
KeymasterKirk,
Ken Laing in Ontario offers Draft Horse Workshops at his farm. He has a great deal of experience and is a well known horseman in the area. He works and keeps Suffolk Draft horses. He may be contacted through email at:
or
Ken Laing
RR # 5, St. Thomas
Ontario, Canada
N5P359519-775-2670
KeymasterThese prices are for logs delivered to the mill, by our private small single axle trucks.
Jason
http://healinghavestforestfoundation.org
http://draftwood.comKeymasterPlowboy,
Could you post some of those great photos you sent me of this family event. They were wonderful examples of modern draft animal use and the crop looked great.
If you can’t get them to post I will try too. I’m sure folks on this forum would enjoy them. But, If you are keeping them for a yet to be published article everyone will understand. We’ll wait. But if you have a few extras, they are cool.
Jason Rutledge
KeymasterI hopes of safety.
I want to repeat and embellish on some of what I wrote. Get an assistant to lead the horse while you are working it on a sled. Be sure they are aware that the horse may get scared and want to run. The assistant can help you hold the horse if it wants to run. Most of the time they just turn around and look at what is behind them and in the case the assistant should continue to lead them forward. Do this in a pen or round pen of fence in area that the horse is familiar with.
It still starts with ground work of letting the horse respect you on the ground.
Unlike Carl, I have had so many horses come through my life that I have had a few that I gave up on. I know it is supposed to be animal husbandry, but I just can’t marry them all….
I only have so much time and have allot of messed up horses come through my place and some of them keep on going…some place else.
When you have allot of experience people tend to bring you some fruit cakes that already have terrible habits and great fear of everything. I have one such horse here now and he is hard to gain trust from and I simply don’t have time for him. So he is being worked with by a former apprentice and who has that time and is making some progress. Getting this horse to the point of being hooked and working will also be a journey. I will be keeping an eye on it and will tell everyone what happens to this horse and apprentice.
Meanwhile I have plenty of young horses of my own to put signals on.
I am not a horse trader, I am more of a horse breeder, but over the years have had hundreds of horses come through the farm. I have never gave up on one I bred. There are plenty that come from somewhere else that didn’t give them any time as a young horse….like imprint training.
Take your time with him.
See if you can find an experienced horseman will come and work with you and your horse or go get some training yourself. You were on the right track when you started this thread. Continued good luck.
Jason Rutledge
http://healinghavestforestfoundation.orgKeymasterYou may notice that the best handlers only have tight contact with their horses when they are giving them a signal with the lead line. The idea is that when they don’t stand still give them some multiple signals or tugs on the lead line, while saying whoa and when the stand still release all pressure or contact with the lead line and then reward with a friendly scratch on the whithers.
Some horses for what ever reason are nervous and insecure about standing quietly. It is the job of the horseman to give them confidence to relax and stand quietly accepting their being a part of the herd of you (the handler) and them the horse. They can only think as horses and a horse is a herd animal that is always looking for a leader, so it is your role to be that leader and give them confidence that everything is alright and they are secure in the herd of two, you and the horse. I hope this makes sense.
It is funny that sometimes the most powerful things we do are the things we don’t do. The idea is to get what you want from the horse with the least amount of exchange and that includes recognizing that the horse is reading body language all the time and by being relaxed yourself you will impart comfort and confidence to the horse. This is speaking of the relationship on the ground of course. That exchange will transfer into harness and work.
Speaking of the female perspective, the role is to be the dominant mare in every relationship with your horses. That is who they learn how to be a horse from mostly. I think this is why sometimes women make really good horsemen, because they are better at subtle signals and not being heavy handed.
This all starts for us with imprint training or cradling a newborn foal under the chin and behind the butt and when they relax, whisper – whoa, whoa and you relax you grip or cradle on them. That single first act of training lasts a lifetime and it is where we want to be with them to be throughout their working life.
If I could think what I wanted a horse to do and they do it I would. Since I haven’t figured out how to get that response yet, I chose to keep my signals to a minimum throughout the experience of being a horseman.
It is a matter of being able to think like a horse, because the horse can’t think like a person. That is the essence of being a horseman because a horse can’t be a human or manhorse.
I am not trying to be cryptic or secretive about this and it is hard to explain in text. It is as hard as telling someone to load a horse on a trailer without looking them in the eye. They are prey animals and it is hard to convince them that we are not predators….but the boss mare they can trust and respect.
Jason Rutledge
KeymasterWell it is going to collect dust with or without the grease so it won’t hurt to have some heavy grease there. You could just put some low sling bar oil on it before use if it is a heavily loaded part and that would lube it some without much build up.
Was there any signs that it had been greased before?
KeymasterSuffolk horses are the most willing of all the breeds from any age in my thirty years experience with all breeds. However a horse is a horse and if this horse was not started well he may not have a good foundation of ground manners, respect for the handler and courage about working in various situations. Maybe you can start with some basic handling on the ground and then have someone lead him while you drive him on a sled so he is comforted and encouraged to follow the leader person. After he gains some confidence that he can work alone with good contact with the lines and consistent signals to start, stop and stand you just keep working him until he is relaxed when ask to stop and stand and you will be making progress. Remember the greatest reward for any beast of burden is cessation of demand. Whoa needs to be a reward, but you have to be working them to get to that point. Whoa starts being a reward on the ground when they stand quietly in hand and you stop contacting or giving them any signals on the head and scratch them on the withers for standing quietly.
From there just keep working him single until he relaxes after pulling a while and keep up consistent signals and reward him with rest. You may increase the load after he gains confidence and strength, maybe pick some rocks out of the cultivated ground and put them in a mud hole somewhere.
It is a good thing you are doing….keep working.
Jason Rutledge
KeymasterHow about “Sap Run Road”…..
Great investment into your children and the communities future.
Congratulations
KeymasterBrubfarm,
So are you looking for someone to come to your place and train your horse and you at the same time?
That would have to be a high paying gig, because it will not be easy to train a horse trainer and train a horse at the same time.
It could take quite a bit of time, because that is the nature of training any horse. It takes time, particularly if the horse will work in a very public setting around lots of people.
It may be possible – but I have never known anyone to do exactly that sort of thing.
If you can’t find someone to come to you place there could be some other options.
It could be easier for you to enhance your skills buy attending some courses by horse trainers and take that knowledge back to your site and train your horse, yourself.
It may be easier to just trade the horse (with some boot probably) for an already broke horse. Then you could take some courses as time goes along to upgrade your skills in training.
Good luck man, it sounds like a great mission to demonstrate what you are doing to the public, particularly a urban and suburban public. I hope you figure out how to get it all done and keep us up on how you do it. I would bet that you can do it if you want to, one way or another.
If we were closer I would try to help. I am in Virginia.
Jason Rutledge
http://healingharvestforestfoundation.orgKeymasterAren’t the Africanized bees the “Killer bees”? Why on earth would anyone want those things when they may swarm before re-queening and invade the surroundings with bees that will kill you if you encounter them accidentally? Why not just regular Italian honey bees?
OTR – hard way to go man, never home, road is not home…Hard to understand the post on this site looking for advice? Good luck to you.
KeymasterI have added a Photo Gallery to the forums. If you have suggestions for Categories please let us know. In the meantime I have added a “Uncategorized” category (sounds odd…) to which you can add your photos.
KeymasterSimon,
One method we use is to include a couple of clauses or sentences in the management agreement or contract that help with the long term issue.The first is reads that as long as the landowner or their heirs own the land and this 501c3 public charity exist – that we agree to collaborate on future harvest. This would make it a perpetual harvesting agreement. This sometimes scares landowner’s because they are afraid to restrict their children’s options. So then we just put a sentence that reads that we have “the right of first refusal on any future harvest”.
We are not interested in controlling anyones land. In fact these clauses are probably not worth more than the paper they are written on unless you see them as “business” for lawyers. The point is that the long term approach is defined in the beginning, so the landowners know that is how we are thinking about it up front. The other point is that by doing excellent work the practitioners establishing themselves as the best at accomplishing the landowner’s objectives and this will become the method of choice. The idea is based upon re-culturing the rural world to have community “woodsmen” that are the best at taking care of the woods. So far we have some sites that I have harvested four times in my lifetime and I am sure they will be harvested by my sons again.
We also like to work on land that is in restricted future use conditions of conservation easements and family trust land. Tenure of ownership is important in order to institute long term management perspectives.
Carl,
Those prices are based upon prices for logs delivered to the mill. That would be an interesting thread to consider. The cultural differences between regions regarding delivery of goods. In this part of the country we don’t have a self loading truck available for hire in every village as you all do in New England. We have to load and haul our own logs. I hate that part of the work
and wish we could hire all the transport on a per thousand basis and just take it off the tally weekly. The worse case is to have the mill haul your logs, because then they set the price for the service and dictate pick up times and such and the practitioner loses independence of where to market. Our approach is to train woodsmen to work for the “man”, but for them to be the “man”.Remember – the sliding scale can be moved or adjusted all over the price range to accommodate it being sustainable for the ground level workers that provide superior forestry services….meaning taking the best care of the forest ecologically and therefore most gainful economically. Brings home the meaning of eco being “house”. We only have one house and it is mother earth.
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