[bivol]

true, cultivating a life and the culture of life on small farms is, to my opinion, the way to go for the future
several benefits:

1.there are more people living now in the world than 100 y before. so, an average farm should be smaller so there can be more of them. this may sound as simple math, devoid of actual state of things, but remember that, once the fossil fuels are gone, there will be no big city populations working in industry, because of the lack of power for the industry.

2.also, people living in small communities tend to be more helpful to each other. a whole new local community exists after the localization. this happened in cuba after the shift in the ’90s.
historically, there were systems in which the villagers helped each other in accomplishing tasks which would take more time than alone. amish still build buildings together. in balkan, there were provisory “mobs”, or bands of villagers who gathered to work on one particirants field today, to be working on another’s tomorrow.

3.higher natality-more children are born. that’s important in my region, which was swept by “white plague”, how depopulation is called.

4. and not to say that localized, self sufficient community is less suspectable market crysis, fossil fuels, or the actual recession.

[bivol]

Biological Woodsman, you couldn’t have said it better!

[bivol]

i didn’t know that!
did wonder why some goats were obviously so big. it makes sense now!
how big and heavy can a fully grown weather be?
is it over 200 pounds?
my uncle once had a ram who weighted over 220 pounds.

[bivol]

oh, didn’t know that.
and i wouldn’t want to do anything cruel to an animal in my possession. thanks for the explanation. for an ox to mature in four years, is not surprising, given the size of it, but for wg to mature four years, that’s unexpected long. thanks for letting me know!

[bivol]

hi!

well, use of goats around a small farm, as i see it, wouldn’t include plowing(obviously, they’re too small), but would include hauling firewood in a small wagon, hauling manure on the field and hay to the barn. y’know, road work.
to my opinion, two wethers should do on even ground, with more goats added if need be.
oh yeah, while reading in the net, while reading a text i stumbled on a note that there is a plowing harness for goats.
seeing my face at the moment must have been funny! anyway, i found that goats (pair of wether) should be able to pull a small, i guess donkey-sized, cultivator, the thing that scratches.

and if we’re talking goat power as a serious alternative, we’re probably talking about an amount of land where the plot can be cultivated by hand. not that the scratcher wouldn’t be helpful.
how many working goats should one keep? as blunt as it may first appear, i’d like to know how many harness goats can someone keep and spend less food than keeping, say, a donkey or two.

it would be interesting to compare food consumption of a couple of working goats to a donkey, and their power outputs!

but even if they would be equal, i’d still pick goats, because:
1)if you are keeping working wethers, it’s likely you keep other goats, or have a mini goat diary. so the working goats can be cheaper to obtain and to replace.
2. they mature faster. a goat can be fully mature by a year. a donkey takes a few years to be able to do hard work.
3. they are, i think, more menagable than a donkey. from what i’ve red about donkeys, you can’t force them to do something, you must ask them.
4. if you do something wrong in training, you can always sell or consume the wether easier than a donkey. it’s more difficult to sell a ruined donkey
5. they are better to eat than a donkey. at least to me.

but, there is one thing which a donkey can do: guarding. a donkey can guard other small livestock on pasture. but than again, i’d rather get a livestock guardian dog, if i had a farm. they can not only guard my livestock on pasture, but also my farm at night. and they don’ eat THAT much.

now, power output:
1 weather- 180 pounds = can pull 360 pounds

2 weathers (standard hitch) = can pull 720 pounds

4 weathers (heavy duty hitch) = can pull 1440 pounds

the pulling is meant for a wagon on an even ground.
2 w. can pull a decent load.

which do you think is the best option to hitch them? i’d always, even 4, hitch abreast. 4 wg are still not very wide.

[bivol]

does anyone know how much can two big wethers pull in a wagon on a level ground?

[bivol]

well, i red this trick somewhere: you take the urin of a mare in heat and put it on the “place” of the jennies.

[bivol]

Hi!

this is a trailer for a south-korean documentary movie called Old Companion.
old companion is a story about an elderly couple who lives in countryside, and their ox. all three main characters are memorable, the complaining, but good, wife, her workoholic husband, and their old ox.

the story shows their lives and how the old man deals with the nearing death of his old ox, who has cancer and only a year to live.

this documentary was a hit in korea, now a modern and urban country, with such traditional farming in decline, with over a million people who watched it in korea alone.

i’d sure want to watch it, and if someone wants to see a calm, yet touching story about everyday people, and hasn’t heard of this movie, this is a heads-up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6UqRwURsRE

[bivol]

wow, this thread has really evolved!

now, we all know and most of us like dogs, and consider them emotional animals. i don’t disagree.
when my dog was nearing his end we were spending every day at the veterinarian. i was carrying him because he couldn’t walk.
one day he lied there on the table weakened, and was taking infusion.
a man with a rottweiler entered the room. that dog had, i was told, cancer, and his owner brought him to put him down.
the rottweiler lied on the desk and a student gave the injection. suddenly my dog, lifeless before, got up, and started to whine, and wanted me to get him out of the room, but i couldn’t, because he was still connected to the infusion. when i managed to have him uncoupled from the infusion(i couldn’t do it myself because he clung on me, had to yell at the staff) we got out, and my dog calmed down. after a while.
my guess, how i know my dog, is that he knew the other dog was being put down, and he didn’t want me doing the same.
my dog died some days later naturally, at our apartmant.

[bivol]

@Rod 7960 wrote:

Yes the design is based on the article on the web about the Golovan cart with some modifications one of which is the receiver setup which allows it to be used single or double. I mentioned the cart was based on the Golovan model in the original forum article about it. See ( http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=869&page=2 ).
I know the sketch in the web article shows it set up as a single ox cart but I can tell you my team of Holsteins (2600#) had a time pulling it up a hill with a bucket of composted manure in it.
By wooden floor did you mean wooden sideboards? I can’t see how a wooden floor would work or make the cart have more capacity?

well, as long as the loading capacity is concerned, the wooden floor has surface greater than the original cart. ad to that sideboards and you should be able to carry more. you don’t use the original space, it is covered, but you use the new, bigger surface, with sideboards to greater loading capacity. or so i think at first glance.
but a cart being that heavy i didn’t imagine.

an idea: you could put in holders for wooden or iron frames in the front and back side of a cart to have a greater loading capacity when transporting hay or manure. also, some frames on the sides could help. just a sudden idea, i got it now.

[bivol]

that’s a golovan cart design. original was designed for a single ox, and the design also allows for a wooden floor to be put on top to increase loading capability.
nice done!

[bivol]

the pictures are great! thanks for letting us know!

[bivol]

@manesntails 6050 wrote:

I Kn00000000-ow! This is why I thought it would be cheaper to AI a jenny who was a proven Hinney producer. One who got pregnant already by a stallion.
That too would peobably be hard to find but I doubt, as expensive as buying your own Friesian mare. The cheapest I’ve seen for one is 5,ooo and it didn’t have excellent confo but was not misshapen in any way nor did it have any outstandingly bad flaw, just not really balance.

I’d have to call it Frieule:D

well, you’d get a hinny. a hinny is diffirent than a mule, some say they lack hybrid vigour, some that hinnies are irreperably sluggish, and some thet they are calmer than mules. it would be cheaper, but you need to see weather maybe the nature of the friesian would be more compromised in a hinny than in a mule.

[bivol]

hi, welcome!

now i don’t know a lot about training donkeys, but i know that with training cattle is simpler and more straightforward than training equines.

anyway, there’s lots of info on training calves for oxen. they are two separate species, and training your heifer would be best to follow the rules about oxen.
training a single ox or training a pair is essentially the same, if you commit yourself you will get an obedient ox.

if you want the most complete information, get a book “oxen; a teamster’s guide”, by dr. drew conroy.

also, google “oxen training”.

good luck!

[bivol]

@FarmerFred 7415 wrote:

See i’ve always thought that this would hurt the animal but after reading this site i guess in a way it is just like having their nose peirced and if they are doing it when they are young then it doesn’t really affect them as they don’t know any different.

But i could be wrong but i would have thought there would be a much bigger furore about this if the animals were really in pain all the time from it.

well, with nose rings you can also make some mistakes. one is to fit them to calves (really no need), and not exchange them when they grow. this will hurt the calves. it’s the best to fit them on adult animals.

the nose rings do hurt the cattle if you pull hard, but i guess it’s like a human being cajoled by the ear. once you don’t move, it’ll really hurt, but the second time you’ll follow the much easier pull.
oxen are smart, they will stop at the slightest pull once they learn it causes them pain. so, it does hurt as the last resort, but oxen usually comply before.

the oxen feel the nose rings a while after they are put in, but i think they get used to it, and don’t feel them later, except when you pull.
if

vicki, ofcourse you can use the oxen without nose rings, but it is more practical for some purposes, like plowing alone. i can’t guarantee someone would want to help me plow the field by holding a plow for several hours. and if i would find that person (highly unlikely in my country), he’d probably charge me more than it’s reasonable to pay. and you can also drive on a cart, and not walk in front. that’s why i like them.

i wrote this before, but i’ll post it one more time:”cattle driven with nose rings always can be, and are used to, being controled from behind. they may not see you, but they know, if they act up they can expect a tug.”

and because they know you can always discipline them, and they don’t know weather you are looking at them, they will be less likely to act up, if they have prior training.

as for animal activists, they are not rational in their demands, don’t have the knowledge, but have lots of prejudices, and are usually extremists, and extremism of any kind is bad. allthough i have seen a picture of two oxen in harness and with nose rings on a parade in texas.

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