[bivol]

hey people, sorry to chip in so late!

Fukuoka actually rotated THREE species of grass family – rice and “winter wheat” (barley and wheat), so he could keep the straw deseases in check.

also, with tilling, one also makes weed seeds resurface. with no-till agriculture, since one doesn’t invert the soil, the seeds get burried and stay down. it’s a matter of what grows faster – wheat & clover, or weeds.

right, for seding thy used little clay balls mixed with manure and seeds which they’d scatter through the fields, so no real need to even touch the ground, according to mr. Fukuoka.

although he himself said that practices would have to be different according to climate.

[bivol]

update!
eastern bow yoke could actually have some potential, but the iron pipe would, IMO, have to have a diameter of a strong human hand. once one’s bend it (sand inside, ect,) it could offer good touching surface on a broad neck.

[bivol]

Ixy, glad you kindled this one again!

Well, one could significantly improve this yoke design by adding a wooden “cusion”, inside shaped to follow the curves of the neck(mush like a common neck seat). on top of it would go this same yoke. made some drawings, if you want’ could try to upload them.

the problem is that if the surface pressure decreases, there could (again: could, i’m not sure!) come to stronger sliding of the yoke up over the neck, which would put extra tension on the rope under the neck!

with current design, the yoke digs in the neck and the pressure of rope on the wind pipe is somewhat bearable.

Mr. Roosenberg, this one won’t work well under heavy draft. for one, plowing in the east with this yoke goes sloooow. another thing is that tests done on water buffalo, comparing the traditional design and a collar showed that the collar is better. and if you say the collar wasn’t satisfying, i wouldn’t be surprised that this eastern yoke works even worse.

but there is an alternative to angle-regulating yokes, like american design with low hitch point.

did you hear about fixed angle yokes?
they’re in use in eastern europe, look like this

here, the neck seat is, well, ridimentary. but one could make a rounded one, without expending much if any debth (and yoke strength) to lowering the hitch point.
everything – wagon tongues, whatever – has a hole in which this metal nail goes into to hold it. the nail (and angle of line of draft) also regulated the angle of neck seat to the necks of the animals.

and to my knowledge, the hitch-point itself doesn’t need to be very deep. this is a traditional Istrian yoke design, strangely similar to english and american designs.
the point with this yoke is that it doesn’t slide up and down the neck – ever- , it’s fixed by its teardrop-shaped bows, who offer a fixing spot and minimum of extra drag to (minimaly) lowered hitch-point. it doesn’t have a nail, btw. it has a twine “ring”, like american designs.

[bivol]

i bet old folks still think their local methods are better, and can’t see why you’re using some new contraption!:D

everywhere the same, here too!

[bivol]

there are also lots of inter-species crossings that are inter-fertile, like cattle-yak crosses, buffalo-cattle, etc…

yes, onagers and donkeys are inter-fertile, much like przewalsky horse and domestic horse are interfertile.

in mongolia there is a (banned) practice of crossing tame mares with przewalsky sires. the product is still too wild, but additional crossing with horses will produce 25% przewalsky ans 75% domestic horse, which is tame enought but superior in speed and endurance to domestic horses, and widely prized for racing.

following the analogy, once a tame jenny is mated to a wild onager stallion, it’s offspring is more spirited and superionr in stamina, strength, and hoof strength. and their speed, strength, and aggression would have been put to good use when in heat of battle. no place for a slow, timid common ass there, they needed something more like a muscle car, so they “tuned up” the common donkey with onager blood.

as for their looks, i think onagers are taller and have shorter ears than domestic donkeys, so…
they are called “donkeys”, but in fact the are called a half donkey, an equid that is more closely related to donkeys than horses, but still not a donkey.

[bivol]

a laminate yoke! and a very nice one!

did you just glue the boards together?

i still have to work on making a yoke, so far i’ve made only a single bow for fun. not like it’s burning under me to make it though.

hey Wolfgang, how do your neighbours react to having oxen around, especially with a wooden yoke? i know wooden yokes are not common in Germany.

[bivol]

GOOD ONE!
a nice way to enjoy and bond!

somehow reminds me of those zen pictures and “riding the ox home” zen lessons.

[bivol]

You’re right Eric, i didn’t mean it like that. what i meant was a non-obligatory sort of dare to the brains of the world: ok, now we need you, do something IF YOU CAN. if not, we’ll manage anyhow.

and yes, it is well possible that nothing will come along unless “common folk” don’t work it out. but, isn’t there, frankly, already enough to tap on as it is? the best thing is we might not have to invent anything, but simply be willing enough change our practices (here i mean people of a nation as a whole. Carl, good work!!), and have to make do basically without or with very little outside energy, and what little alternative fuels well access will be used to smooth the important stuff out.

if there aint no fuel, there are these important issues:

1. food production – smaller plots easier to till. more people will have to revert to farming

2. mobility – bikes, trains, trucks, whatever gets you from A to B. animals and feet included.

3. goods allocation – there will still be trains for most neccessary stuff

4. manufacturing goods – smaller scale industry. also people making more by hand.

why wouldn’t people in a fuel-scarce future use a bike a bit more?
this may sound like a tree-hugger clichee, but it can, believe me, get you very far in a very short time!

my dad was a pro bike driver, and he’d routinely cover about 360 km on highway by bike in a single training session, in a single afternoon, and then go do other stuff. no biggie.

but if it’d be me, the world wouldn’t fare well, i’m afraid (or would it?), because i think changing our ways as a whole and re-adopting some low-tech practices is the only way to live after fossil fuels if there is no major technology break-through. i think low tech solutions are a major part of solution. now we have a world which has a cult in high-tech stuff.but then it’s that army saying “improvise, adapt, overcome” (or localy: make do, comrade!)

a thought: big oil lobbies practically control and suppress every serious rival in potential energy.
i think that they have already accumulated a lot of technologies and patents which can give or tap the energy al around us, in the sky etc. that they don’t give it is another thing.

Tesla said:”energy is all around us, we just have to use it.” back then he wanted to use some of his inventions to tap on the static electricity in the stratosphere and provide free power, but the investors were against it! why? because they couldn’t make money out of something people could get for free. even worse, they’d loose money!

[bivol]

@goodcompanion 23560 wrote:

It’s all possible. The core problem is that the alternative fuels that are cost-effective in terms of energy are pretty hard on the land. The ones that are not hard on the land are not cost-effective.

In France during a 19th century coal shortage the nation’s forests were converted to charcoal in desperation, and still haven’t recovered. I kind of feel that if we get similarly desperate for fuel that good forestry and farming will get short shrift.

And important to note that none of these things would take place in the context of the global marketplace as we now know it. So the priorities of resource managers would probably shift from profit to survival. Whether this is better or worse for the planet as a whole is anybody’s guess.

yes, alt fuels are more expensive but thats not the point. the point is to be able to keep the basic system running, like public transport, in a much narrower scale than today ofcourse, until something comes along.

alt fuels can’t replace oil, but can enable us to operate the most important stuff. lots of private cars not included.

so, yes, there will be concern for survival rather than profit and competition.
but, we’ve all historically done it – and successfully – so, at least we know it can be done. even if shifting “back” won’t be pleasant.

[bivol]

@JimB 23569 wrote:

here skilled agircultural workforce is also a problem! but the best part is, they can’t even find un-skilled!

Bivol I think your right but wrong here in the state I am in the gov. breaks and returns on farming taxes causes the old guys not willing to share there experience and the young guys afraid that you might get a piece of there share so they hire imigrant workers that they send home after the work is done. I tried this past yr to cut tobacco pick taters and produce and they didnt want to teach me let alone let me work so its not entirely the young people fault.

As for the chicken little “the sky is falling” it aint but we better change our practices before we end up in a bad predicament.

As for china needing our markets they do for now but they have already fronted the money to expand the panama canal so there big vessels can get through to there larger european market which is as I understand 2-3 times larger than ours so where does that leave us maybe playing second fiddle.

youre right Jim, on spot!

basically the current level of energy consumption is unsustainable, and we have to change our ways, wether we like it or not.
and frankly i don’t quite understand what is so unnatural in less mobility and cars.
why is it normal for every person to own a car? it has become a neccessity because of surrent economic practices, but with fuel prices rising, that system will have to change….
i mean, it was because there was cheap oil that cars were introduced in the first place. that mobility led to the possibilities harnessed by this economic system, but long term it wont work like this. renewable resources will enable the system of basic transport and so on continue to work, but i don’t see a bright future for current level of personal mobility with technology we have.

i guess situation at your place is even worse than here, in this sector, although rosy it aint here, too. basically we had a decrease in used arable land from 3 mil hecrates (6 mil. acres) in 1990 to about 1 mil hectares (2 mil acres) of land used today. it’s obvious that the government works in favour of trade lobbies importing food.

i dont know how it is on passing down the knowledge, but here there are instances young folk want to stay in the village and work on the land, and older folks wont hear about agircultuaral schools, where agriculture is properly tought. instead they insist that young folk must attend something else, because : why’d you wana learn agriculture? do it as we’ve always done it!” it’s a crutch.

[bivol]

so far i think i understand what you want to say, but it was never my attention to think that these fuels could simply “take over” oil, and that we’d continue with our current, energy wasting lifestyles. that much i know, without this much, and this cheap, oil, it wont be possible.

as for ERNOI, i know at least two processes (gasification and F-T process) that have proven to work in ENROI, as i understand it.
F-T process was used for decades in SAR, because of oil embargo against the apartheid regime, and it worked well enough, cars had fuel.
ofcourse it won’t be able to satisfy all the current demands from people, but then again, does it need to? in a serious fuel shortage that could be a part of the soultion.
i was never claiming we could maintain the satus quo with alternative fuels, just that they could be used for necessary purposes.

second solution, gasification (wood gas) was used for at least 5 years. i know, in terms of a long-term, global solution, it isn’t one. but it can at least cut some distance, somewhere, to some people.

also, if the world is to run out of oil, there will be no oil for everyone. this means there will be no oil for, say, western, chinese or indian industries, meaning there will be no cheap, bad-quality, useless products. this in turn leading to no significant and constant shipments, meaning again no cheap good that close local factories (because of shipment costs if not production) so we’ll revert hopefully to a more local production and industries.

if fuel prices go up, people will have to change their habits or find a way around then (individuals driving on w-g, for ex).

what worries me the most id the energy available for production of basic foodstuffs. if we have that, we have the time to figure the rest and blunt the edges to any potential change for the worse.

[bivol]

OldKat, thank you!

from what i’ve learned so far is that in most cases it’s not the smartest or most educated people who lead the way, it’s instead some populists who by some weird pattern always rise to the surface and mold the future, at least here.
i can, without overstating say that the current level of education, culture, industry, art, or human rights is now lower today than it was 20 ys back in Yugoslavia. and it all didn’t help much in the 90s.

there are, in general, lots of students who are better than i am, but the new style “bolougne” education is making the educational system crumble under our feet! i can truly say that out old style system was higher quality than this (EVERYONE SAYS SO, students and professors alike!), but i’m still hoping that on rest of 2. and higher years the quality will rise. it should.

i was i think one of a few students when a professor from UCL came to hold a speech on cooperation between Uni. of Nebraska, Lincoln, and our Agric. Univ.of Zagreb. i’m ashamed to admit there were more staff than students.
so, it may seem that croatia has some good students, but every country has some.
from what i’ve seen from UCL, it’s very good and quality educational system. so never mind the handful that’d so or so be excellent, it’s the system who produces enough well qualified people.

back to oil:
it’s true speculation is a problem, but there is a question to how much the prices will grow. because i remember when the prices hit the all out maximum here, the were speculations that now addional oil reserves were tapable.

1. they mentioned canada, and their oil deposits in sand, which was previously too expensive to extract, but with rising costs, it’s becoming more and more interesting.

2. also, new oil reserves will be uncovered up north as the polar ice retreats.

3. then, there is a process called the Fischer-Tropsch process, used to turn coal (or wood) in (synthetic) fuel. and world still has more than enough coal.
this tech is extensively used to produce oil in SAR, where they have large coal deposits, and were banned from oil imports.

4. on UCL they’re experimenting on using switch-grass rather than maize for ethanol production.

5. one could also use bamboo for fuel. bamboo is fast growing, up to 30 meters in first year, and gives 12 tonns of biomass per hectare per year, compared to 2-3 tons of biomass/year wood gives.

so i think there is still both enough oil and ways to produce it in world, and we won’t physically be deprived of it. price of it is another thing.

it will be interesting to see how much will the governments of capable countries (aka the West) let the prices soar and choke the economies before they attempt to regulate them.

[bivol]

@jac 23516 wrote:

Good point on the domestic production Rod. Im not so sure these countries would collapse, surely they would knuckle down and get on with rebuilding their country… Cuba did..
Bivol a lot of the steel workers that were in the industry are retired now and youngsters dont want to get their hands dirty nowadays. Getting skilled workers for agriculture is a real problem now. I didnt know JCB were in India cousin Jack..
John

didn’t know it was that bad with young people! maybe they’ve learned that they will “always” be living well off so no need for a dirty job… for now.

cuba succeeded because they really had their backs against the wall, there was no other way out, and because there the state organizes everything. that’s one good thing about totalitarian states, they’re much tougher to crack down in disasters than democracies.

here skilled agircultural workforce is also a problem! but the best part is, they can’t even find un-skilled!

Marshal, the opposite would be a total locking up of borders, noone wants that. but we need the balance in open/close mechanisms.

globalization was an excuse from developed countries to go and rip off poorer countries. now, when they’ve been beaten at their own game by china and india, they’re still at it, only we (the common people) have to pay the piper!

[bivol]

John, i see. luckily horses and oxen can still be produced locally… not much of a relief though.

Geoff, i’m well aware of his protectionist tendencies, and that any form of protectionism is almost a blasphemy in todays economic doctrine… but that’s just it, a doctrine. and economy isn’t just economy if it dictates faiths of states and nations. then it is something much more, and needs to be taken care of appropriately.

i’m not for hermetically sealed national markets, but there has to be a healthy degree of concern and protection for domestic production. current economic doctrine don’t give a slightest option on protectionism, and i know this much, once you loose your industry, there will be no jobs, and no jobs mean no need for education of people in industry and related. in a couple of decades you will loose all the expert knowledge and capital, and will practically never be able to have the production as before.
it all already happened throughout ex-yugoslavia, factories closed, people fell in apathy, they have no future, no hope for any better life, no need for schooled people if they can’t have jobs, and it’s very hard (in our case impossible) to get out. one can whine, but that’s how it is.
that’s why i’m studying agriculture, that’s the only branch that has some future, because we can’t all be merchants selling chinese goods, and waiters during summer!

domestic production isn’t just about jobs and being able to produce something, it’s also a possibility for the future…

[bivol]

jac, i can’t believe that there are no tractors being assembled in UK! so, it came that far?:(
even in croatia, we produce some small tractors, not to mention IMT in serbia, licensed MF tractors… honestly that surprised me! where do you get your tractors from? those from china are use-and-scrap quality!

back to the fuel prices… i know this may sound strange, but i think that increased fuel prices could actually kick-start local economies – MAYBE!

if shipment becomes expensive, it will pay off to produce locally.

goods are produced using three factors: energy (fuel), labor, and raw materials.
now, historically, if one of these factors is cheap something other will be expensive.
since energy has been very cheap in the past century, more raw materials were being extracted, which made them cheaper, too. but over the years, with rising standard, labot in the west has become more expensive.
in the same time, BECAUSE there is lots of energy, there was enough to start industries in developing countries (nothing against that!) AND to ship millions of tons of goods all across the globe, and cheaply!

now, if that energy wouldn’t be available, people would inevitably have to, due to lack of goods, start producing their own goods locally again.

the standard would fall, but we would once again be producing something!

i have a feeling the whole “global market” idea is already hitting hard in the kidneys of the western economies.

as for china, it would be dangerous to try and draw ther debt as that would endanger their export-driven economy too

as far as 18th cent, in “The Wealth of nations”, Adam Smith advocated for national production and export, and against buying imported stuff! “it’s better to pay two golden coins for domestic product that buy a foreign one for one gold coin”.
Adam Smith is supposedly the founder of modern economics, and his words make common sense! is it possible that the man from 18th century sees things more clearly than all those internet-ed modern economists, so lost in “global competition”, “stock exchange”, “modern development”, and other fancy phrases used to hide the fact that we are losing our economic base – the national production?

whoa, strayed off topic again, sorry!

[Author]

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