[Goranson Farm]

Thanks for the suggestions Nick. I’ll start reaching out to folks and see where it leads me.

Carl

[Goranson Farm]

I really appreciate the perspectives. I would much prefer to trim these horses freestanding. The were originally trimmed in stocks and their feet were not handled regularly so it has proven to be an uphill climb. I will never buy a horse that cannot be trimmed freestanding again. I do need to trim their feet ASAP. When I had more time I was able to work the kicker regularly in the round pen I could pick up her feet but never got her to the point I could trim or ask others to trim her. I simply don’t trust her. While her attitude towards me has improved dramatically there continue to be “tense” moments. I have had to start from scratch with this mare with a very limited amount of time to dedicate to it. I’d say Princess is a challenging mare to learn on as the stakes are so freaking high (she could kill me). I wish I could find a way to center the farm around the horses. But as I’m attempting to integrate them into an existing system they often take the back seat.
I was told they were “trained” to stocks. I was thinking it may allow me trim regularly and proceed with some needed foot care. I hope to continue training them to pick up their feet as the winter rolls in. But based on the long list of carpentry projects and equipment repairs I’m a little nervous I wont have the time required to bring them around. Despite some huge successes this past season the full integration of horses seems a bit more of a romantic dream. Really wish I had purchased a different freaking team of horses or had the skill+time to bring them around…

[Goranson Farm]

Still looking for some words of advice on working a horse with respiratory issues. I have yet to sell this mare and plan on trying to work her into the routine in the next couple days.

Thanks,

Carl

[Goranson Farm]

Updates:

I’ve put the formal training on hold for a while and decided to wait until I get a wooden round pen built. I don’t want to take the chance of running her through a poly-wire pen. Our farm really hasn’t slowed to the pace to allow the time to work her in the capacity I need and want to. Other things have been occupying this time, like putting up a run in for the winter and introducing one of the percheron mares (Abby) I was working this summer with the hopes of having a team that wont bite or kick people for sleigh rides. This has been quite the adventure as I’ve found the mother to be more aggressive towards other horses then any other I’ve had on the farm. The older mare is still charging her if she even gets within ten feet of the shared fence line. There has been no sniffing or touching noses. The mother and daughter will be tied to the wall and as I walk the percheron by the mother will pull hard snort kick and attempt to charge her. While trying to halter and bring them in the mother will consistently turn away from me and charge Abby who is in the neighboring paddock. The intensity of these bluffs hasn’t calmed in the past 2 weeks its pretty consistent.
I tried turning them out together but after a couple charges Abby was immediately pinned in a corner and run through the fence. Tomorrow I’m planning on building a large round paddock and trying to turn them out for the second time. I’m a little cautious because Abby is a leased horse and I don’t want to be responsible for injuring her. I also hold this horse pretty close to my heart.
he mothers anxiety with having another horse on the farm has brought out some interesting behaviors. A couple days ago she tried to bite me while I was unhitching her from the wall. This came as a total surprise.
I’m trying to be patient. Wont attempt to hitch the two until my brother comes back from Sterling College and I have a hand. Whats so ironic is the younger mare and Abby are eating quietly together on the wall while the mother is in the stall snorting and kicking at Abby on the other side.
My winter paddock for the horses is plenty large for three that get along well but way to small for three that don’t. This has complicated things and I don’t really know quite yet how I was going to deal with it.

The farm is still cranking and not showing any signs of slowing down and I’m feeling in need of a bit of a break, maybe a trip down to Crossroad Cultivator to work with them on a McCormick Deering with 6 foot wheel base! I’ve been missing my leased team and the comfort, confidence, and simplicity it could have brought to this fall. Sorry to sound so dreary! This transition has been a substantial source of stress and consumed a lot of my mental and emotional energy. It has inspired deep self reflection that I don’t think I was ready for smack dab in the middle of one intense harvest season.

Time to let the horses out!

Carl

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Goranson Farm.

[Goranson Farm]

“Don’t keep demonstrating this fact to yourself” I’m having a bit of trouble understanding this statement in response to joining up. Are you saying to be selective in the moments I let her join up?

“When she was trotting around the pen you commented on how little pressure it took to make her move. Could you have used less pressure and had her walking? How would this have changed the dynamic?” Yes totally! I’ve been lunging her at a walk on the home farm and she has picked it right up. Still working on getting her right side smooth. I’m a little nervous about asking her to go at a faster pace as I don’t feel I have enough control just yet. Yesterday, Lenny was really pushing us to keep the pace up and really run her.

I thought the plier recommendation was questionable as well. Lenny has this interesting mixture of natural horsemanship techniques with this old backwoods flair. I’m taking it all with a grain of salt. A lot is jiving with what I have learned from other people and videos. It all feels a bit loose over there but I’m sure that is just based on what I’m comparing my experience to.

As for getting pinned… I totally want to get her the “f” off me, I guess I’m still feeling a bit outgunned. I got into a fight with her front end which escalated pretty quickly. Its that balance… I’m feeling ready to start working around her back end more proactively.
If I remember correctly here was plenty of space in between the two mares. I was actually pushed over into the mother. Which now that I think about it is pretty interesting. It was like I was holding onto the hand of a clock and swung right into the side of the trailer. Without a tool in hand I don’t feel ready to engage her back end.

What about intentionally trying to elicit the kicking response and then responding with 110% energy (with flag in hand) then loving her right up? I’ve been thinking more and more about actively trying to create the “pinning” situation.

Mitch,
Emma is one tough cookie and has yet to act out except for this moment in the round pen and when I asked her to trot while lunging. I understand how this illuminates what may be a substantial hole in our relationship. Yeah it would be super interesting to continue working her in the round pen. My day to day interactions with her are great and while working she was with me 95% of the time. Doesn’t stand great… perhaps that is something to work on. I’ve heard that older horses usually take a longer time to come around… From what the prior owner has told me of Emma she was a hell of a mare to brake.

Also, I wanted to mention this in prior posts… Whats the F-ing deal with Bay horses! Perhaps its just coincidence but Mitch I remember you telling me about that crazy team of bay horses you had.

I am going back and forth…

[Goranson Farm]

I’m still processing this afternoon so it may come out a bit jumbled.
Loading was pretty uneventful. The younger mare was much more willing to follow me into the trailer than her mother. Totally opposite what I expected…HA!

So there were a couple things that made the experience a bit unique:
There was a pair of stocks and tire in the middle of the round pen.
I was one of two people in the pen. Another man who Kenny had helped earlier this spring was over as well and kind of lead the charge.

We began simply by running the younger mare at a steady trot. I was surprised by how little energy I had to send in her direction to get her to get her to move her feet. She displayed very little aggressive behavior toward me or the other individual while in the round pen. She is pretty out of shape so Lenny told us to stop and rest her periodically (This was a bit inconsistent with what I have been reading). I was struggling to keep my shoulders at a 90 degree angle to her hindquarters and keep her to the outside edges of the round pen. We invited her into the center of the circle when she began to lower her head. The joining up was extremely loose and I was struggling to navigate the stocks and tire while keeping the correct body position. She really did appreciate just being allowed to hangout.

By the end we were picking up her front feet and I was rubbing her all over, including her hind end! I was instructed to stay close and square to her while I was doing this. She pinned her ears once while I was coming around her back end. Lenny said this was because I wasn’t embodying the confidence and trust necessary for her to fully trust my intentions. I’m struggling with this because simply don’t trust her and wont for a freaking long time. My confidence did grew substantially while we were in the round pen despite this one moment. I worked around her a little bit more, picked up her front feet, wrapped her up in one of Lenny’s horse blankets then lead her out to the trailer.

We then proceeded to work the mother in the round pen. I wanted to see how the response would be different and it was substantial. In the 30 minutes we round penned her she never showed any signs of “submissive” behavior. She kicked out multiple times at both Lenny, myself, and the other man. This is something the younger mare never did. It reminded me of a story I once heard from Mitch about one of Donny Webb’s horses getting worked in the round pen. Donny’s horse who was really super mellow, broke broke, was being described by the trainer who was working her in the round pen as an absolute rebel. This was lenny’s description of the older mare who I have found to be pretty damn steady, responsive, and willing in everything I have asked of her up to this point. I’d love to hear peoples perspective on this…

We worked this older mare until the sun was pretty low and then decided to call it and lead her to the trailer. While tied to the I began to work around the young horse exactly how I did in the round pen i.e. rubbing her down and circling her entire body with mine tight to hers. The first trip around her went great, i didn’t notice any behaviors I would interpret as aggressive. The second trip was not quite as affirming. As I rounded her left side she went for me hard with her hind end and pinned me up against the trailer…
Lenny responded to this behavior saying simply that “Rome wasn’t built in a day” and that it would take time. He said the next time this happens I need to shoot straight for her head rather than letting myself be pushed by her hind end. You have so much more power at their head… He also said if she tries to bite me leatherman work really well at biting them back… After that he really didn’t give me anything else. I would love some more ideas…

Some conclusions:
I feel that the round pen is totally a viable, productive, and safe way to work this mare. Making the transition out of the round pen is going to be a bit of a challenge which was totally displayed. I would love peoples perspectives on this. The round pen work in conjunction with the exercises I have currently been doing while she is tied to the wall and leading I’m hoping will help bridge the gap.
My experience in the round pen was all in all pretty positive. It felt extremely loose. I don’t know how much of that was lenny instructing me to reward her attempts or just sloppiness of communication (probably a mixture of both). I’m going to try and make a large poly-wire pen and see how that goes. If she goes through it then I will go from there and start looking for other options.

I’m going to purchase the Clinton Anderson DVD and see where that gets me. The snippets I’ve watched on youtube make a whole lot of sense with my prior experience. I’d love to talk with folks a little bit more this. I’m excited to pursue something with a bit more structure. Today seemed very fast paced. I felt like we were maybe skipping some steps or letting some things slide in the interest of time. Perhaps I just can’t read the more subtle changes. I would have liked to have her join up more strongly than she did today. But perhaps we were just rewarding the try.

Its very interesting to see where the terminology or academic language of teamsters overlaps. Lenny has used that term. I’m going to call him tomorrow to talk a little bit more about it all. Just need to formulate some solid questions.

After today I will be just as vigilant but substantially more confident in how I move around the mare. I also have much more confidence in my ability to read my horse. Lenny said that I was a bit paranoid (which is probably true). For me this result is enough for me to proceed. I’m actually kind of glad she went for me at the trailer. It would have been way to easy!

I’m hoping to team Emma up with one of the Percheron mares I was working this summer for the sleigh rides. I’m going to pasture the younger mare separately with a steer on the property and put Emma with Abby in the primary pasture. My plan is to work Princess single all winter grooming trails and pulling out firewood. I’m just hoping I can provide consistent enough work for three horses.

So I think I’m sticking it out. Lenny thought I should based on what he saw.

OK, I’m done tuckered out…

Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by Goranson Farm.

[Goranson Farm]

Its great to hear others experiences in working with these challenging horses. The timescale is something I’ve been finding myself wondering about often. If its yrs before I can be confident this horse will not kick at me or others who approach her I’ve got a lot of thinking to do.

George and Kristan, I’d be interested to hear what your experience has been with having apprentices or employees work around these horses.
We are hoping to hire another teamster this summer similar to the tractor/equipment operator we hire now for tractor work. Can we expect this person be tested in a similar aggressive way? How do I avoid that? Will the farrier be tested in a similar way?

Don,
I’m searching for and finding many positive moments. The past couple weeks its been pretty calm and simple.

Lenny Kelly came over for a visit yesterday and we worked with the mare on a lead rope for about 30 minutes. He said that we had definitely made some progress since his first visit. She was still quite “crabby” throwing some pretty awful looks around. She also swung her back end around towards him at one point. Lenny commented on the fact that she was still afraid of the flag and I needed to invest more time desensitizing her to it. He said a lot of this fear comes from me thinking about the flag as a means of protection and subsequently using it towards that objective.
I’m going to truck her and her mother over to his place this Saturday afternoon. I’m a little nervous about the loading to be completely honest. If her mom is in the trailer I’m positive she will hop right on. Lenny just had heart surgery a couple weeks ago, so its sounding like I’ll be the one in the round pen with him coaching me either at my side or on the edge. He has talked about working the team together at first and then removing the mother and moving to work the younger mare single.

Also got to hear a cool story about this one horse Lenny’s father picked up. They ran a 40 horse logging business not twenty miles away from our farm. He called him a “rebel” (thought of you Carl) and was a terrible kicker and wouldn’t let anyone near him. Somehow they were able to get the horse in the barn and cross tie him. Lenny and his brothers climbed up in the mow and started to throw hay bales off of either side down onto the horse. This horse was pretty wired and was kicking at the bales but they just kept throwing them down until they were well over his back. After they had effectively immobilized this horse they climbed down from the mow and started to brush, groom, and pet him all over. They got a harness and threw that on him, all the while slowly removing the hay bales until they were all back up in the mow. He said that horse was in wood lots working the next day and didn’t come back to the home farm for 2 yrs. Said he was one tough SOB.

On another note…
A local horse dealer said he would take the younger mare for $1,500. I told him I would have a better idea come Sunday if I was going to try and find this horse a new home. Just weighing the options.

I’ll let folks know how Sat goes,

Carl

[Goranson Farm]

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it.
I’ve had a couple good conversations with friends in the area. It sounds like the key is limited amounts. I have been stripping the ears off for the pigs and just feeding the stalks to limit grain intake. Its crazy how sweet the stalks are! It gives them a ton of energy for afternoon work.

Thanks again,

Carl

[Goranson Farm]

would love to talk with you about the team. I’ve been searching for the right pair of horses for our farm for about a yr. now. Would love to arrange a time to come out and drive them. will you be at the field days? I will call tomorrow.

Thanks,

Carl at Goranson Farm

[Goranson Farm]

Sounds delicious! What time does dinner end? I’ll be picking for market till 5 at least and wont make it to MA till 9:30PM. looking forward to meeting and talking with folks.

carl

[Goranson Farm]

Anthony,

I’ve been thinking of trying the same thing on my parents predominantly tractor powered farm. We run all of our beds on 6′ centers with 1-5 rows per bed. For some crops (sweet corn, beans, strawberries, squash) the 6′ and 36″ spacing between rows works out well. But I can only cultivate 1 row at a time with the McCormick where with the tractor I can cultivate two. Currently its hard to rationalize using the horses on tasks they perform at half the efficiency of our tractors when there is a myriad of things they can perform with equal or greater efficiency (ie seeding cover crop, spreading fertilizer with the drop spreader, single horse cultivating black plastic, bulk harvests of produce). I’d just love to add another thing to the list.

It gets a bit more complicated with the majority of the small seeded crops. I’ve been talking with the folks at Crossroad Cultivator about extending the axles of a McCormick so the wheels are on 6′ centers (just like our tractors). A wider yoke and evener would be used to put the horses in the wheel tracks. I’m hoping the tractor tire tracks will work as a guidance system for the horses. We have a beautiful, light, tool bar off of an old G which if I’m lucky will mount easily to cultivate multiple rows at once.

I’ve seen some I and J cultivators set up with wide eveners and yokes to cultivate black plastic which are definitely worth checking out. From these photos its is challenging to see how they rigged up the lines. I’d love to hear how this works out for you!

What are you using for a cultivator?
Any thoughts on how you will rig up a tool bar?
What are the motivations for extending the width of your beds?

I’d love to hear what tasks other mixed power veg operations have found for their teams. Right now we are in the middle of Cover Crop season and I’ve only knocked out 3 of 33 acres. Yikes! Got to go get that vetch and Rye in the ground!

Carl

[Goranson Farm]

Hi Jared,

Thanks so much for keeping a look out. No horse yet, actually not even a lead. I check the ME, VT, NH, MA, NY Craigslists frequently, but it really isn’t the place to find what I’m looking for. I’ve called a couple horse dealers, one in VT and one in Connecticut who I guess are on the lookout. I would much rather purchase this horse directly from the individual that trained and worked her but I don’t know what other avenues to pursue. My deadline is March as I would rather spread manure with horses over the Kabota so I’ve got some time. Thanks again for keeping an eye I out. I really appreciate it.

If folks have any horse dealers they would recommend I would love their contact info.

Hope everyone stays warm the next couple days!

Carl

[Goranson Farm]

Great! Just sent out the email. I’m not positive Hallie and I will be ready by Nov. We have definitely made progress the past couple weeks, but with field work dwindling I’m a bit worried we won’t work together as often as this past month.

Any ideas for some moderately heavy work one can find around a farm this time of year that would provide a safe environment to train a green horse? I feel like I’ve got a ton of potential cart work for my older Belgians, I just don’t trust Hallie with it yet (So much standing).

[Goranson Farm]

hi brad,

is it possible to bring my own team or single horse?

[Goranson Farm]

Thanks for the help! Sorry for the delayed response. All in all its amazing how much vets mark up antibiotics and how well they work…

Annie is now on Doxycycline which I ordered from Wedgewood Veterinary Pharmacy. The total cost came to $450. I contacted Rood and Riddle (thanks!!!) and found that they couldn’t ship Doxycycline to Maine due to shipping regs. Not only could Wedgewood mail me the antibiotics but they turned out to be cheaper than Rood and Riddle.

On the health front:
Annie has been on antibiotics for about about a month now and seems to be doing better. She has more energy and isn’t as mopy. Last week we seeded over 13 acres of cover crop! I would get up at 5 to mix the vetch and oats, load the grain drill with 200lbs of seed, grain, medicate and harness up Annie and Snap, and plant until in got hot/humid (about 10:30 last week). With Annie in mind I wouldn’t seed more than 2 acres at a time. It took us about 3 acres before the team and I could make some straight evenly spaced passes. At first I was to hopping off the grain drill pretty regularly to throw some seed down by hand on areas we had veered off course. This gave the team ample time to rest during the work. In a couple months I will have Annie tested again for lime and see where we stand.

Horses on the farm:
Despite Annies Lyme this season we have raked all of our hay with the team (25acres), cultivated with a single horse our black plastic crops, and will have seeded over 15-16 acres of cover crop. The team and I will be working through the fall hauling the harvest of 50,000 pounds of carrots, 60,000lbs of potatoes, 15,000lbs of winter squash, and other random root veggies in from the field.

Next years goals include tedding+raking all of our hay, cultivating (Why does a cultivator that can straddle a 36 wide bed not exist!!!!!!), fertilizing cover crop ground with three up and seed all 30+ acres of cover crop with the team. If folks have any ideas for other tasks on a 60 acre organic farm that could be efficiently completed with horses I would love some suggestions.

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