[Donn Hewes]

That is great work. Thanks for doing that. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Steel is a little more expensive than a wood. I would make the steel tongue strong though. square stock might be better than galvanized pipe. 2 x 2 with 3/16 wall thickness might be good. !/8 wall thickness might be alright with 2 1/2 x 2 1/2? Just thinking out loud. Do you use a D ring harness by any chance? All my tongues on new carts are not attached at all, just slide into a socket. This makes them very easy to change. I would not do this with any other harness type.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi George, This version is definitely lightly balanced on its bareings. That idea came from looking at the small portable cement mixer. after mixing cement you just tip it into a wheel barrow. This one is limited in size due to the fact that I wanted to be able to remove it easily. I will make the back and sides a little taller now that I have used it.

I think I could pretty easily build one 2x or 3x if I built a one purpose cart. Building on two wheel makes a lot of sense as that is what keeps it compact and allows you to back it right where you want to fill or dump. You don’t really need bigger wheels as you can put the pivot point where ever you like. The hard part about making a bigger one is one limiting factor is how high you will throw to fill it. That means making it wider or longer. Longer will also effect how low it is before it dumps. I think that is the beauty of the transverse design. It is just a little tricky making low enough to fill, and high enough to make a pile. this one could be a foot taller, a foot wider, and two feet longer. This would make a biggish dump cart.

Having said all that, I think I will work with this size for a while. we cleaned a couple weeks build up faster with this cart than I have with anything else, and we were building a pile that was 100+ feet from the barn. Also letting beginning teamsters do all the driving, which involves a lot of backing and turning in tight spaces!

[Donn Hewes]

While some like wider eveners for full sized drafts in some situations, 36″ certainly work and are also common in many situations. For a wagon specifically one thing you want is a few inches between the single trees. It sounds to me like the double tree you found will have about 8″ inside the ends of the single trees which is enough to keep them from roughing up the tongue.

[Donn Hewes]

The new Cart is going back in the shop today! Chopping and moving parts. Making something multipurpose is hard to picture the interactions! I will keep you posted.

[Donn Hewes]

I will be interested to hear if anyone responds, but i don’t know of anyone state side that has worked much with the team system of two set of shafts? maybe Carl can direct Morgan or someone else to fill us in. The horse on the new homepage photo is mine, and even though she has working in shaft maybe thirty minutes once before, she did not mind this set up, in the road, or up or down hills. I think most state side have been developing a method to incorporate the connections to a standard D ring harness, so you could use your North American single and team equipment as well as the short shaft systems.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Ron, I hope Carl R or Morgan or someone else will respond here. I have used the shafts a time or two. I am not sure of a pole or tongue design for a team? For the single horse hooking in to a short pair of shafts, they seem like a traditional method to me? They are stable, strong, and secure. They go forward, back, and stop as well as other shaft systems in my estimation.

[Donn Hewes]

No, we are both fine. I found the lost tug that had been missing for a few days. I have been driving him, or riding him almost daily. He is just a good reminder to me, of the measure of what is “slow” or “fast” is not up to me, but up to what he tells me. He is gentle and quite, but also likes new things introduced very slowly. When we had the discussion about the age of starting animals one thing that wasn’t mentioned is that some 2 1/2 year olds will not be mentally mature, and might just be that much easier to start in another year. I know some trainer / farmers put it off till the last minute for this reason. With the other mule I worked with recently I never felt that, but it seems like it might be part of what is going on now with Pete. Today I had him all over the tugs, chains and single tree, and just let him figure it out for a good while.

[Donn Hewes]

It has been a while since we had a discussion like this on the forum. It is fun to read. What a great craft we are pursuing. So, what can Donn add to this today, you ask? How about two broken tugs, a broken pair of lines, and a slightly bent ego.

[Donn Hewes]

If I am patient I get good running gears for $150 to $250. There isn’t anything I can make for less than that. I can describe how I like to put a slightly lower bed on a hay wagon. After placing two 10 x 3 beams on the gear, I skip the cross beams and go directly to 2 x 6 decking nailed directly to the beams. The 2 x 6 could be tru dimension larch or hard wood, or pressure treated 2 x 6. To secure and strengthen the outer end of each board 1 x 3 or 1 x 4 are run above and below on the outer edge. This share the load from one to the next when you step on them. This wagons are fast to make, and a few inches lower than a wagon with 4 x 4 cross beams. That have lasted great. Two of my wagons have tongues that slide short for towing behind the baler or forecart, and can be extended and an evener added to hook a team right to the wagon. These sliding tongues are handy for hooking up when the wagon is heavy.

[Donn Hewes]

I have been thinking the same thing today. It would be a lot nicer to add a couple pieces now rather than after I have kinked it. Interestingly the rectangles are very prominent in the Barden cart that I looked at a lot, but because I choose to move my hooks a little forward I didn’t see how I could still retain that aspect of the barden design. His hooks would be on the back side of the rectangle but my would be on the front side of the rectangle, but still benefiting from the shape.

[Donn Hewes]

carl NY, you might have a point. That is 2 x 2 by 3/16 tubing but the design still is weak right there. I sort of built it one purpose at a time; ie. I built the arch, then an opening for drawbar to slide in, then started adding to it for a seat bracket which will double as platform for my dump cart. All the triangular bracing of the arch and seat bracket could have been better served with a vertical leg up from the axle on each side. This would have created rectangles that would have supported the area you are talking about. I would rather not come forward with a brace if i can help it, keeping the foot and seating area clear. Thanks for the input. It has been siting there for a couple weeks and believe it or not I haven’t even hooked to it. so busy!

[Donn Hewes]

Carl. That was great. I think that without realizing it that is what I meant by “don’t keep demonstrating that fact”. I don’t think we are teaching the horse those things as much as we are demonstrating them to our self. It can be useful for a beginning teamster to learn were their power comes from. For the horse in the round pen is like someone you have know for sometime, and today they come in and act like we never met. Strange. Not bad necessarily, but in any compressed space and time, it can even increase the chance for miscommunication. When I suggest figure out how to get out of the pen I intend to continue with specific training objectives. I will try to use simple work tasks, like pulling a log; as my pen. The great thing about a simple task is it becomes the “third leg” of a triangle. You, the horse, and the task. This takes some focus off the horse, and give you a chance to demonstrate your competence and purpose to them.

[Donn Hewes]

It is slightly more finished now. still needs a seat and draw bar for summer use, but could pull a log today. I see some other slight modifications i will add for chain holders etc. The other photo is of an oil tank being modified for my new Dump attachment that will fit right on this cart. D

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[Donn Hewes]

Hi Carl, I want to say your idea of a grain of salt is right on, but that goes for all of us. Too easy to write ideas and suggestions here when we are not the one’s working with the animals.

I truly believe a round pen in your situation is a catch 22. This is what Carl R is talking about. The tool (round pen) gives us power and leverage over this animal. Use it too much and the horse smells a rat. Bringing a buggy whip or flag stick in is a good example of this. One of the first principles of pressure and release is to use as little pressure as possible to get the desired result. In the right hands a buggy whip or flag stick can be a great tool, but for many of us we don’t know how to take the pressure of these things off, or make this animal comfortable with them. It makes it harder to find a way out of the pen because the smart horse knows you have given up the tools.

What are the objectives of the round pen? To link up with the horse? I think you have done that. What exactly does linking up do for us? It teaches a horse to turn toward us when loose, allows the horse to be comfortable approaching us when we permit it. Follow us without a rope. Is that what linking up is? These are fine things, but they don’t add much to our ability to work or drive the animal. To my mind they really help with catching it, haltering it and leading it.

To harness it standing in the middle of the pen. This would be good. To pick up all it feet? This would be good. Even brushing it or cleaning it, can help it stand for a moment in the middle of the pen. Driving – Perhaps for a minute but this is a very small area to drive a horse in.

I think a lot about the calm, relaxed, and alert horse. I believe this is their natural state. I believe this is what we should be focused on when working or training. I mean to priority above everything else all the time. In asking a a horse to try a new thing there will be times where it is less than perfectly calm and relaxed. I shift my efforts to returning it to that state.

I don’t believe I am the worlds greatest trainer – far from it, I think I make mistakes often and try to learn from them. But I am intensely focused on the calm, relaxed, and alert horse. Even in my worst moment when a mule has sprung from me and gone to the barn (like yesterday – ugh) I am calm, and he is calm. He is only somewhat relaxed, and this is why I need to go slowly. I am going to see him relax before I ask him to do much more.

Again, easy to say too much here. I hope you are finding it fun, or at least interesting. Keep up the good work. Donn

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