[Hal]

@Biological Woodsman 8229 wrote:

The affection that the general public has for animals is important to introduce interested folks into this culture of utilitarian workstock.

That is definitely true in my case. As a member of the “general public” and a very new person to draft animals, I can say that I was first interested by drafts primarily because I like horses more than machines. But then I realized that there really are practical reasons to work horses as well, which just adds to the appeal. I think that both sides of that (the appeal of horses and their practicality) should be taught to the public and emphasized.

By the way, I second OldKat-that’s a great looking team of working horses there.

[Hal]

Reading the past few responses here, I don’t know if I understood what people were talking about when they said that they didn’t want to develop a complicated “relationship” or friendship with their mules/horses. I thought that people were talking about ignoring the needs and capabilities of their animals, but I think that what they were really talking about was the fact that they didn’t need to be analyzing their relationship all the time–they just needed to be competent leaders. I hope I didn’t seem to be condeming anyone’s approach or judgement.

[Hal]

@Ronnie Tucker 8136 wrote:

They are not here as partners, there is no relationship or friendship. Someone suggested that they are broke by submission, which is true, and to quote Jack, “if they ain’t afraid of you, they ain’t goin to mind you”.

If I believed that, I would not be going into horse/mule farming. I hope that that is not true–because to me, that is a very discouraging way of thinking about using draft animal power. It may be true (and I am sure that you have much more knowledge of horse farming than a newbie like me), but I can’t imagine that you don’t have some kind of relationship with your animals. If a farmer didn’t want the challenge of forming a pratical working relationship with an animal, why would he/she even use draft animals (as opposed to a brainless tractor)?

[Hal]

@jenjudkins 8021 wrote:

I have a hard time envisioning a way that someone like Erik with a good size CSA, will be able to develope a truly ‘closed system’ without collecting some humanure from his clients. Maybe build a ‘potty wagon’ to bring some of that bread back to your land:p.

In all seriousness, I have actually wondered about the potential of “humanure” to be a useful source of fertility. I guess that there are many obstacles and considerations (not the least of which is public perception) to using composted human wastes to fertilize farm fields, but I have read that the Chinese did this for years, which contributed to their ability to feed a large population in a small area. Just an interesting thought.

[Hal]

@near horse 7948 wrote:

Production of foodstuffs by its very nature removes nutrients from the soil to be consumed by us or our livestock to grow, live, work … Those nutrients can not be replaced by just adding manure from you or your animals back to your soil. While that might increase tilth by increasing organic matter which in turn can help maximize availability of nutrients present, the nutrient profile of manure is very different than that of the original feedstuff – usually much lower in protein (N), higher in minerals (salts).

While I agree with most of what you say in your previous post, I do not know what you are suggesting that we do now to make farms as sustainable as is practical. If you do not think that adding manure back to the soil can compensate for the nutrients taken out, what do you think farmers should do to replace those nutrients? I am not trying to argue with you here, I am just looking for some ideas about what might be a sensible course of action when I am trying to start my own farm.

[Hal]

@goodcompanion 7878 wrote:

It is also generally understood that permanent pasture, managed for grazing, produces a substantial surplus of fertility. This is what makes everything possible.

That is what I have heard from some other sources also. It is very interesting and somewhat amazing that that can be the case, but it seems to be true based on the experience of pasture based farms. It makes me wonder if sustainable “vegan” farming is even possible (as I have heard some vegans claim), or if livestock must be the key to sustainable practices. I have come to thinking more and more that livestock are absolutely necessary, but I just thought that I would bring this up here.

[Hal]

What is basket britchen? I don’t know much about the d-ring harness style.

[Hal]

@jenjudkins 7859 wrote:

My understanding, Hal, is that the revenue created by the sale of farm goods can be used to replace lost nutrients, in the form of feed, seed, minerals, etc. Maybe I misunderstood your question…

Jen, I was talking specifically about farms that aspire to not import nutrients from outside, even though they sell products to consumers. I have heard of farms that proudly state that they do not import compost of any sort from outside of the farm. I am not trying to criticize these farms, but I am questioning whether that can be sustainable in the end. OldKat, I tend to agree with your reasoning; I would think that any crop exported would ultimately take nutrients away from the farm, but I guess that that can be offset.

[Hal]

@Does’ Leap 4940 wrote:

Gross margin analysis in a nutshell looks at the income and costs from each farm enterprise (your labor is a cost), putting aside overhead (mortgage, taxes, etc.) After you pay your labor and cash costs for each enterprise (in our case goats, sheep, cattle), you need to cover depreciation, opportunity cost, and inflation. If there is $ at the end, you made a profit.

I know this is an old thread, but I am curious about how you decide how much to pay yourself when you factor in your labor as a cost. Do you go for a certain measure of dollars per hour? And I am assuming that “opportunity cost” is what you might get paid at another job?

[Hal]

I don’t know much about silage/baylage, but after reading these replies, I am wondering why you would feed it at all. It sounds potentially dangerous and more expensive than hay, so what are the benefits?

[Hal]

I would appreciate it–it would be helpful when looking for information in old threads. I don’t think that it is a problem that threads sometimes wander off topic, but it can get confusing if the original title is not related to the discussion.

[Hal]

@PestoPower 7671 wrote:

The kbs are having a tough time filling their quotas.

Who are “kbs”? Sorry if this is obvious, but I know next to nothing about the horse market, auctions, etc.

[Hal]

@Biological Woodsman 7641 wrote:

Blane does have some poor form and his lines are not handled the way I do mine…

As a novice, I am interested in what makes his handling of the lines poor form–are his arms or hands in an awkward position? How would you have held the lines in this situation? I am not contradicting, just curious.

[Hal]

Bachelor Farmer, I agree with Robert MoonShadow–that’s a good use of an otherwise wasted resource. And I would guess that it saves quite a bit of money in the long run?

[Hal]

That’s a great bunch of photos–thanks for posting. I noticed that many of the horses/mules were wearing what looked (to my inexperienced eye) like “yankee brichen” harnesses–is that more common out West?

[Author]

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