[ngcmcn]

Hey Don, haven’t had time to check out your phots, but i did have several questions about gear. On your #9 , where’d did you get the steel wheels and how much were they. I have a rubber tired #9 with a blown tire. I actually like the steel better, seems to run smoother. The other thing is, did the relpacement wheels, that bolt to the spyders, change the knife speed?

Alot to do this fall to get ready for winter, we have a little more hay down to get in with this beautiful weather this week. It seems all my mowers need something which i will get to this winter. the other question i had for you and to any one else reading this, is……how much hay do you put up by yourself, or with one other person and what ,maybe two teams or the equivalant. We have improving fertility,maybe 10 acres but definitely not flat and square fields, that we hay. Not to hilly either. I’m using all ground drive gear except for the baler which my girls pull. A third horse on the baler is in the future. I have done 1000 bales by myself, no help, but with another team,and good fertility i know i could up that considerably. What do ya think? I know some folks in N. Vt who put up about 5000 with two teams all done with the horses except the baling.

Hope the roof got done.

Take care

neal McNaughten
Unity, Maine.

[ngcmcn]

Hey Julie,
Was cleaning out some desk stuff yesterday and came accross your card you gave me a while back at the CGCF. Don’t you have some rust colored equipment in your yard as well???????

If your just driving a single a western style brichen will do, unless Jonathan is getting the team mate.

Good luck

Neal mcNaughten
Unity, me.

[ngcmcn]

Good article, except for the blatant assumption that the only way to do hay productively is with tractor power.

Neal

[ngcmcn]

george,

Find a good seven and get the tractor yanked mower for a parts machine. Ya can’t have to many mowers.

N.

[ngcmcn]

Good work Jen,

For years i have on many Sunday afternoons driven my team around to visit neighbors, old and new. People come right out of their houses to see a team in the driveway, quite neighborly.

Neal

[ngcmcn]

Just noticed that there was a second page of replies on this thread… So when I said “last message” I was talking about the herbicide and tillage approach, way back when.. That’s what lurking will do for you!

Gwyneth

[ngcmcn]

I should say first off that this is not Neal, who usually writes here, but the “G” in ngcmcn, Gwyneth. I usually just lurk and read over his shoulder, but grazing is very near and dear to my heart, so I had to chime in! I’m sure I will run on for too long, but hopefully some of it will be helpful.

As someone who has a fair number of years of experience working directly with horse, cattle, sheep and poultry grazing, and running a program which gave me the chance to visit hundreds of grazing farms, I would have to totally disagree with the last post. Especially in a forum like this one, large machines and agrichemicals don’t need to play a part in pasture renovation, and in my opinion they shouldn’t. You have all the tools you need–animals and fence. Add a little clipping to keep those horses moving between other jobs, and you can have a very nice pasture, with a sod that will stand up a lot better to horses than recently tilled ground. Unless you want to do the scorched earth routine every three years or so…

Number one in establishing the plants that you want is to create the conditions that they need. So, for example, liming was a great place to start. Legumes need light, as someone noted, but they also need a fairly neutral pH. Make sure your fertility is good (which it well may be if the pasture has been just left alone for a number of years rather than hayed repeatedly without fertilization). Use fertilizers that add a wide range of nutrients, not just single nutrient blasts. Solid manure is great, compost better. You also will have to make sure to keep rotating those pastures–animals should not be in one place for more than 3 days ideally (though we often stretch it to 5 or so, due to time constraints.)

You need to also accept the plants that your rotation and animals bring, though frost seeding can work fairly well with legumes, all other factors being in line. I like to think sometimes about the seedbank that is in soil. All the herbicides and tillage in the world are not going to rid you of everything in there–and that’s a good thing, because along with the goldenrod there is white clover, red clover, timothy, bluegrass, orchard grass, brome, dandelion (watch any grazing animal, and you’ll see this is a favorite), plantain, etc etc etc.

Number one grazing MYTH for horse people is that timothy and alfalfa are the plants of choice–emphatically, no! Alfalfa, apart from being poorly suited to the northeast in general, is an upright growing legume, with growth points well within grazing reach of a horses bite. Timothy also will not withstand a close graing by a horse–unlike many grasses that store carbohydrates in their root system, timothy has bulblets at the base of the stems, which dessicate and die when grazed too close. Some plants that can stand up to horse grazing are bluegrass, creeping red fescue, and white clover. You’ll have others, but I wouldn’t want to put a lot of money into buying seed. There are some horse grazing mixes out there that you could check out if you want to try to overseed some thin areas (spring and fall are best).

Weeds. Well, if your horses won’t touch them, try grazing them younger (not always an option, I know), but everything is more palatable when small. Next, try fencing your horses into a smaller area. Think of the paddock as the plate you just gave your two year old (their eating habits are similar). If you give them just enough (small paddock) broccoli(weeds) and chicken, they’ll likely eat a little of it. But if you load them up (big wide open paddock) with piles of broccoli, chicken, potatoes, and chocolate cake, you know they’ll go right for the chocolate and skip the veggies. This is another place where horse grazing can be a challenge… they like and need to move in their paddocks, but I like to think not all day every day. For example, try moving a front fence ahead through a 1/4 acre paddock, giving them just a narrow strip each day, but widening it out till they have the whole piece on day 5. Or fence in long strips.

All this is management of the overall grass stand that will help, but you will still struggle with some of this stuff. Goldenrod absolutely will die out in the first few years if you keep it clipped. It really can’t stand close cutting on any kind of a regular basis. Bedstraw seems to be an ongoing struggle. The best control seems to come with a combination of patience, good fertility, and good management.

We have found clipping to work well to speed things up, especially with horses. One way to maximize the impact of your clipping is to remember two factors: 1) When you clip, think of it as a part of the grazing exposure of a paddock (i.e.: it should also be done within the 3-5 day window of when you graze the paddock), and 2) If you are trying to impact one weed primarily, the best time to clip is when the plant has set flower, but not any seed as yet. If you can see the flower structure, go for it. If the flowers are open and blooming there is likely some seed out there, and some plants will continue to mature seed after cutting, too.

Last thing– i know this is all a little disjointed, but I wanted to throw out a few main ideas–if you can do it, try to get all your different species grazing together, rather than doing leader/follower groups. This doesn’t always work–I know of a horse who killed two sheep (by picking them up in his teeth and shaking them), and I have had horses run sheep through fences when they got bored or hungry. However, if you can make it work, it shortens your grazing time on each paddock, lessens your fencing requirements, and increases competition (which translates into better grazing and more plants eaten). One thing that I had never put together in my head is that while a cow will not graze close to her own pies, and a horse will avoid his own manure, the dung of another species is far less repugnant–cows love all that greenery that springs up around a pile of horse poop, and vice versa! Also, the tighter the grazing area, the better distribution of manure you get.

[ngcmcn]

The I&J Gd forecart is being used for balers but needs added tractor weights, and cleated wheels with a gang of at least four on the pole. This wouldn’t work for me in small little windy Me. fields i hay.

N.

[ngcmcn]

Jen,

You shouldn’t have to till, but to renovate a worn out pasture takes time, like three years or so with sufficient stocking rates,i.e, enough hooves, poop and pee and saliva to impact the biology of your soil. Composted manure and lime are good but there again it takes a while.

We have been restoring a worn out hay field here in Me. that had mostly golden rod, and bed straw in. In two years of attentive grazing, some manure, and lime, combined with timely clippings we’re seeing increased denstiy of grass and clover. The field is changing, but slowly, we really need more animals to do it in a more timely way.

Voisin(sp?)(grass guru) said it tkaes many many years to create good sod if you plow.

Good luck there’s lots of grazing info out there.

NBeal Mcnaughten
Unity, me.

[ngcmcn]

Jason,

Sounds like an excellent idea, the more draft animal power gets out there the better. When’s the first one, and where??

Neal McNaughten
Unity, me.

[ngcmcn]

Rod,

The fidget rubbing around on the breast yoke pole etc. has always perplexed me a bit. My stead fast belgian gelding never did it, but his team mate, a mare always did. I don’t know why.? I always thought it was mares that did it. The percheron mares i have now one of them does it, the other doesn’t. Its a pain. Your ready to go then realize the reins are around the pony yoke on the D-Ring. Even when working hard she gets ancy and starts rubbing. i don’t think its the tack either. This mare is seven or so and up until recently, was a bit pushy, but not bad. She’d never stay at your shoulder, would always gain a step ahead of you as you lead her, and the guy i got her from said as a two year old was always trying to be at the top of the pecking order with in a large group of horses he had. So we’ve been working on it. When i lead her if she evn gets a little ahead of me I either stop her, turn her, or tap her on the nose with the end of the lead rope. This has worked well but i have to correct her evn at the slightest infraction or she takes advantage of the situation.

This may sound strange but is a small point of behavior that i think she has never really accepted the work and harness completely, thus the rubbing, and “how can i do something different.” Shes an excellent horse. Smart and willing but cunning too. I like her. The results of no BS on the lead line has effected her behavior for the better accross the board, and reduced the rubbing somewhat.

Good luck

neal

[ngcmcn]

Neil,

was reading through earlier posts on this thread and came accross yours and if i understand correctly you advocate never setting down the reins for any reason, and always tie your horses up if they’re parked. Tying at a park I can understand but what if you are working alone, say with a baler in the middle of a large field………..no help, no assistants, and your baler starts acting up, not in a big way but enough to need both hands to fix at the tail end of the baler? Or lets say your on a tight woods trail, no help, no body around and there’s a tree down accross your path that you can’t get over and you have to run your saw to clear it. As far as i’m concerned theres no way i could run a chain saw with the reins in my hand and yes i could tie them to a tree.

I work alone primarily so its important that i work safely and i believe thats your point. I set down the reins all the time, but only for a very limited (short) amount of time,and monitor them constantly and stay close, i don’t leave them to go get lunch.

By the way either every one on this site is out doing hay?(not around New England with all the rain we’ve had) or, who knows what.

Best
neal Mcnaughten
unity, me.

[ngcmcn]

Rod,

I was driving a single horse once, she was new to me, she took off, i got back up ran after her, and just as she was coming to a stop i recovered the reins, and said “whoa”, I don’t think she ever knew i wasn’t behind her, but she responded to my whoa. Never had another problem with her.

One of the things that works well for me is to park them in such a way that they’re “boxed in ” so to speak.Like in the opposite direction of the barn, or headed up to a tree line or fence or what have you. I also will do square pen work, my paddock, where i’ll work on standing. Do they step off before you ask them too when you work them?

Goodluck, always something too learn.

neal

[ngcmcn]

Jason
thanks for the lead on the Western to D-Ring conversion. I”ll check it out. I’ve got more then a few western harness around.

Neal McNaughten
Unity, me.

[ngcmcn]

Carl,

22″ front tugs is what i got on these girls, no swivel, the leather goes right around the bolt at the hames. My holdbacks just reach to clip onto the low ring on the hame. Nice straight line to the evener. One horse i brought the D-ring up one hole on the strap, thats it. What i did notice was a very, very slight out of square-ness between the collar and front tug, but good collar to shoulder contact and no sores after a sweaty 3-4 acres of mowing with a McD#7. One thing i noticed is some up and down slop(3/4)” where the tug bolts to the hame which i plan to eliminate towards the balls. As for the evener I plan to build, at some point, a steel one, that will get things up a bit higher.

Question? Have you ever bought new D-ring harness’s and if so , who’d you recommend to get them from? Local, VT? NorthEast? besides Meaders?

Thanks

Neal

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