[OldKat]

@mitchmaine 19431 wrote:

Hey, been waiting for today for a month. Haying weather. Hooked the horses, put in my knife and pitman, topped off the oil…..oil leak. Pitman shaft seal. Darn, oh well, later…three laps around the field and snapped off the mower toungue. Darn. Busted it up so bad I couldn’t use it for a pattern. Darn. The good news? Two nights ago al asked for the measurements on the pole and I went out , taped them, and posted the measurements. Logged in, read my own post and fixed my pole. Without that I’d have been stuck. This website rules! Cut a piece of green red (??????) oak and replaced the pole and have the seal out. The replacement seal is about half the thickness. Darn. Anyway, good luck haying, thanks al, and carry on…..

mitch

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Mitch,

Lynn Miller says to use TWO of the modern seals on each side, because he said they are exactly 1/2 as thick as the old style. Haven’t gotten into mine yet, but I just read that passage the other day. I had to read it twice, becuase I thought it sounded goofy … but that is what he said works best.

Good idea about measuring out the tongue in case the old one breaks.

BTW: I have never heard the difference between a “#9” and a “HighGear #9”
Thought maybe this was covered in the Miller book, but couldn’t find it. Anyone got an answer?

[OldKat]

@near horse 19485 wrote:

This GMO bulls**t is also a rigged game. It seems that while there’s solid evidence that GMO corn and soybeans have left us with “super weeds” (resistant to roundup or what have you), stupid USDA is in the process of approving Monsanto’s RR alfalfa seed. The superweed complaints are coming from farmers who actually bought into the original plan and are now asking, “what the hell do we do now?”
It shows the power of Monsanto and other big corps over policy here in the US. It didn’t take a genius to predict that some weeds would survive and pass on the resistance to their progeny – DOH! That’s selection and genetics 101 which doesn’t give a hoot about economics 101!
As far as dairying goes, with processors so far and few between, it’s hard to imagine how big the transportation component of their carbon footprint is. Also, those freakin’ mega dairies haul in huge amounts of commodity feeds everyday – just seems to me you can bend the numbers in which ever direction you’re already leaning towards. Don’t despair – you’re doing the right thing.

Geoff,

I once met a lady whose family contract grazed stocker cattle on farm land they leased from other farmers. They were in Nebraska, I think. She said one year that the cattle ate all of the weeds in the field, any grass they could find and so on. They would NOT touch the corn stubble or any grain they found on the ground. The corn turned out to be GMO corn. Tells me about all I need to know about it. Bad stuff.

[OldKat]

BTW: all of this may not seem like it has much to do with the point of this thread; the future of dairy cows. I don’t think so, because I think ultmately the confinement dairies will collapse under their high costs of doing business (overhead) and the fact that they are selling a commodity product at a very low margin. I honestly think in the long run seasonal, grass based dairies will become the norm. Of course, I will probably never live that long to see it.

[OldKat]

@Ixy 19483 wrote:

Up until recently we have only managed to keep them off areas on a field-by-field basis, but now we have a backfence so we have the grass returning while they are grazing the field they are in, giving even more grass – we’re hoping tis extra will counteract the effect of the drought this year.

We never plough, fertilise, top or reseed the pastures – essentially, they lie fallow the whole year except for maybe two or three ‘grazing days’, so there’s plenty of time for them to recover, self-seed and cycle by themselves.

I have come to know more about drought than I ever wanted to know, so I understand where you are coming from. It may not be enough to completely solve your problem, but I can assure you from first hand experience that it will help. I don’t have near as many cells as you have, because I can’t be there to move them from cell to cell. Still, last summer my pastures were literally the only ones in the immediate area that ANY green grass in them.

The grass was short, because we got virtually NO rain for about 60 days; while we were experiencing 100 plus degree temps for about 25 of those days in a row. We then had another 60 days of below “average” (whatever that is) rainfall. However, I at least had some green grass the entire time. Most people fed hay the entire summer and well into the fall. I had to feed for about 3 or 4 weeks. Big difference; $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[OldKat]

@jac 19484 wrote:

Certainly sounds like the sustainable farmers dream.. the only issue I would say is that you would need to be 100% sure your fields were clear of ragwart and any other poison plant. Would cattle and horses not be sort of forced to eat it towards the end of the grazing day ? An interesting concept though and if I can get away from that combine for a day i would like to visit on that open day you planned Ixy.. BTW OldKat did you ever get the chance to try out that recipe for the fly repelent? or did it prove to be a load of croc:D..
John

If you can go to a field day, do it. If you like that sort of thing it will really fire you up.

Just about the time I got ready to try the stuff out our fly problem suddenly got better, so I wasn’t going to be able to tell if it was working or if there just weren’t many flys out anyway. As soon as the next batch hatch out I am going to try it out. I don’t really like spraying my animals with those harsh commercial formulas.

[OldKat]

@dlskidmore 19482 wrote:

How do you control that type of fire? The native Americans didn’t have to worry about the neighbors, the neighbors wanted their grass burnt too.

We disced a couple of passes around the perimeter of the field to create a barrier to the fire creeping out of the field. He also owns the adjoining fields on each side, so he shredded a couple of passes on the sides adjacent to the controlled burn about two weeks before and was getting just a hint of regrowth in those areas. These really didn’t come into play, but they are good insurance.

The main thing was that we had about 20 people out with shovels, flappers (old mud flaps off of pickup trucks mounted on an old shovel handle) and back pack sprayers of water to stop any embers that crossed the barrier from flaring into larger flames. We also had a sprayer with a water tank mounted on a trailer to use as a fire engine until the fire department could get there in case it escaped. Fortunately that was NOT required. We also started with a back fire, in other words on the down wind side of the field we let it burn 100 feet or more into the wind before we went to upwind side and ignited the burn. This gave us a really nice buffer.

This was during one of our many recent droughts, so there was a county wide burn ban in place. However, you can get permit to do a controlled agricultural burn if you have a detailed plan on file with the county fire marshall, other ares may do this differently. We had to factor in wind speed, relative humidity and ambient temperature; couldn’t be too hot, too windy or too dry on the scheduled date. All variables were within tolerances. The burn really went well and was actually an enjoyable thing to participate in. It was fun to watch the regrowth, too.

Since then our conservation district has sponsored a controlled burn trailer with all of that equipment in it, except the trailer mounted tank/sprayer deal.
The FFA chapter at our high school actually built all of the racks inside of the trailer to hold the shovels, flappers (store bought this time), sprayers, walkie talkies, hard hats, fire proof vests, etc, etc. They also purchased all of the equipment, with conservation district money. It is a really nice rig. The people that have used it say it is great, but I have never been there when it was actually in use.

You still have to coordinate with the fire marshall, but there are step by step instructions for the whole process on laminated placards in a book inside the trailer. Our FFA won an award for their work in making this trailer happen. It serves our conservation district, which covers all or parts of about three or four counties.

[OldKat]

@jac 19479 wrote:

Ixy the mob stocking idea sounds exactly what the native Americans did with the buffalo to create new pasture.. they would select an area and wait till the grass was mature then chase a huge herd of buffalo/bison over the area..usually in a rainy season.. this would create the same effect. Nothings really new is it..
When you move the herd onto the next strip are they kept off the area they have just left ? Also does this system do away with having to plow out old, tired pasture ?
John

John,

The people that I know that use mob grazing have done away entirely with plowing or renovating the pastures in anyway, unless you consider the beneficial grazing patterns to be a form of renovation (which usually is the case). Some of them have actually done away with feeding any hay, or have cut it back to a fraction; maybe 10 to 20% of their previous total. That would be fantastic for me to get to that point; hay is easily my biggest headache and most expensive input.

You make a great point about the various tribes that actually “managed” the grasses with pressure on the herds to move into or away from a specific area. Often they did this with fire. Supposedly the grass responded really well to this and grew back thicker and lusher than it had been before.

There is a grass that is fairly scarce in the US called Eastern gamagrass (Tripsacum dactyloides), but happens to grow in abundance in some of the creek bottoms near where I live. Just south of town there is a real wide flood plain along a creek there and probably 2,500 acres or so of it is in native gamagrass. They generally cut it for hay (my horses will do back flips to eat this stuff). Several of the landowners have been combining the seed for a couple of years and there is some interest in planting it elsewhere to get stands established.

Unfortunately it has proven to be a bear to get established. One of my friends combined some seed and planted about a 45 to 50 acre field in it. After about 2 to 3 years he had next to no gamagrass, but a great weed crop. The next winter someone told him that gamagrass responded well to fire, so that spring before it greened up we burned that place off. That summer he had probably an 80% cover in it. The next year it was probably 90% and this year he is cutting hay off it. It is nearly a pure stand now. Amazing response to a low tech, low input management practice that the “uneducated savages” (not my belief, I am being sarcastic) would have easily understood.

[OldKat]

@Ixy 19459 wrote:

Thanks jac!!

Our fields are roughly 5 or ten acres apiece (lots of native hedgerows in between as shelter and we also sell the sloes and things from them), but they are cut into strips that will last them a day by electric fencing. It takes less than an hour a day to move them to a new strip and set out the next fence for the next day as they soon get used to the move.

I personally would love 1acre fields, all surrounded by edible hedges! But that is a way off for us and I think OHs tractor-loving brother would kill us for chopping things up so small lol.

We cut ten acres for hay and various patches that get too long, my intention is to use oxen for that but I’m waiting on my team to mature and get the machinery together etc. We also have a further 40 acres for spare grazing and growing lucerne and pig feed but due to complicated movement restrictions I might have to leave that to the tractors??

John,

Not sure what the costs would be to get it shipped to your side of the pond, but The Stockman Grass Farmer magazine has been on a kick of promoting just the sort of grazing practices that Ixy is advocating for about 25 or 30 years. Really good, hands on type of advice from successful graziers all over the world (but mainly US, Canada & South America) …stuff that really works in all sorts of climates and all sorts of soils.

The problem is if you start reading it you will get so fired up that you can hardly keep from implementing all of the strategies and practices at one time! I have been attempting to fully move that direction for the last 5 or 6 years, but have been hampered by the fact that my cattle are 20 miles away from where I live and we have been in severe drought for much of the growing season for 7 of the last 10 years, and 4 of the last 6 years (BUT SO FAR NOT THIS YEAR!!!!). I can tell you that what I have implemented so far has yielded dramatically improved results, others report the same. What Ixy is relating has been proven to be possible all around the world.

If I hadn’t been using rotational grazing the 100 year drought last year would have no doubt shut down my little cattle herd. As it was I had to cull down to less than half of my normal herd size and buy hay from 500 miles away. If I hadn’t had a good stand of grass going into it I would have been forced to sell out 100%; of this I am sure.

Another plus is that these concepts are cost effective, in fact WAY more cost effective than most of the “traditional” grazing practices. Many people are getting to the point that they can sharply reduce their dependence on hay, silage or temporary pastures and study after study has shown that relying on those expensive inputs are what is keeping most stock producers from being profitable.

Some of their stuff is online, but quite frankly I never go to that site. I enjoy reading the magazine in my easy chair over cup of java. Try typing this in your browser: http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/

[OldKat]

@jac 19461 wrote:

I really need to read more !! I allwaz thot it was the nitrogen that got trapped as the straw broke down… strip grazing sounds like a plan to me, in a 5 acre field I take it the strips arent too wide so reducing the waste thru trampling…cool…
John

John,

I think you and Ixy are actually talking about two different things. I think she is talking about using material that has been already been FULLY composted. It is possible for some composts to be high in potash (K), or potassium carbonate, depending what plant material or other organic (carbon containing) parent material was composted. It is NOT a given that ALL composts are high in potassium, but it clearly DOES happen.

I think what you are referring to is the fact that WHILE carbon containing materials are decomposing or composting a percentage, and usually a large percentage at that, of the available nitrogen (N) will bind or be chemically tied up with the materials that are decomposing. That IS a given and is the reason that you don’t want to apply fresh manure or other high N materials to a growing crop: be it a field crop, a garden or a pasture. You will be applying N, but while the carbon or fibrous part of the manure is decomposing it will tie up the N that is in the manure and if not enough is available it will tie up N that would usually be available from the soil to the plant(s). Likewise, applying straw or other fibrous materials in the form of a mulch cover is usually okay, but incorporating it in the soil and then planting into that mix is usually a no-no … unless you have copious quantities of N present to fed the crop and meet the composting requirements. Usually that is NOT cost effective. What Ixy is saying about keeping things in balance is very true.

[OldKat]

@jac 19314 wrote:

Good point Ixy,I hadnt thot of the diff between fat thats walked off and fat thats trimmed off… and of course we have the 30 month rule because of BSE now as well…and that was a government cock up as well… do our American cousins have this rubbish to put up with I wonder ???..
John

John,

We have a 30 month rule here, too. Not sure if it is the same rule that you have. Here any animal that is judged to be over 30 months of age can be slaughtered, but the brain and the spinal processes cannot be used. Of course that has an impact on the way the carcass can be cut. In real terms it is not that much of an issue, because most animals in the commercial stream that are over thirty months of age are probably going to be cutters or canners (boned out) anyway.

However, it does impact those of us that are feeding grass finished steers or heifers. Using the standard large frame commercial cattle it is hard to get them to finish in less than 30 months unless you live in an area where grass can be counted on to be fairly lush year round or nearly year round. That is NOT my situation. Where I live we say “It no longer rains around here; we have continuous drought interrupted by occasional flooding!” Makes finishing beeves on grass a challenge. That is why I am trying to breed down in frame size to an older style phenotype, but it sure is hard to find animals that have that type of pedigree.

[OldKat]

@KGerstner89 19304 wrote:

By the turn of the 19th century demand for the Texas Longhorn beef began to fade. It took less than 40 years of fencing,plows and demand for the fat English breeds to drive the Texas longhorn closer to extinction than the buffalo. Six cattle families along with the United States Government are responsible for preserving the Texas Longhorn as a breed.

This is true; when they no longer had to walk cattle 1,000 miles or more to the closest rail head it was no longer necessary to use such a hardy breed & they are a super hardy breed. A couple of centuries of natural selection in the harsh environment of south & southwest Texas had eliminated the weak individuals, only the hardiest survived to breeding age. That came in handy when it came time to drive them up the trail to market.

The English breeds fattened better and were more docile on whole than were the longhorns so they were eventually pretty much bred out of existence by crossing Hereford, Angus, Shorthorn and Devon’s on them. In the late mid 60’s through the early 70’s, when my dad was still working I use to go to the packing plant with him (I come from a family of meat packers on both sides) and over the “ticket” window just inside the front door was a massive shoulder mount of a steer that I think was probably a Longhorn – Devon cross, or maybe ¾ Devon, ¼ Longhorn. He was an impressive individual for sure. I can still vividly remember what he looked like and I haven’t seen that piece of taxidermy wonder in nearly 40 years.

My dad told me that when he first started in the packing business at the old Hormel Plant in San Antonio in the mid 1930’s there were steers just like that coming through the kill floor all the time. He worked there, though not on the kill floor anymore, until he left for WWII in the early forties; returning briefly when he was discharged in 1946. He said that by that time no such steers were coming through the kill floor anymore, so your timeline is just about right.

Funny thing is I never saw a longhorn out on pasture until I was in my early 20’s. The first time I saw them was when I lived near the Panhandle in the late 70’s. I saw some in a pasture and just pulled over in sheer amazement. I even went up to the guys house and talked to him about them. I never dreamed they would make the comeback that they have.

[OldKat]

@mother katherine 19299 wrote:

Joshua,
Love the name “Sharpee” out of “Magic Marker”. Sounds like some of the gags I pull with sheep names.
Back to topic. Oldkat, were you thinking of “The Longhorns” by J Frank Dobie? I LOVE that book. When it was pulled from the local library shelves I hounded the librarian for it. Went the night before the book sale to “help” carry, unload and display books until I found it. Told the girl, “I’ll pay anything you want for it!” She thought I was nuts; but I now have my own copy: plastic wrapped and with the original dustjacket.
Kgerstner: if you can get a copy of that book, do it. I think it’s out of print, but Amazon or one of those used book sites may be able to find you one. Of course, as the guy was a Texan, the book may be right on some local library’s shelves. Try an interlibrary loan.
oxnun

No, actually I was thinking of a book that is a series of really, really short stories told by guys that were youngsters when they pushed herds north. The Texas & Southwestern Cattle Raisers undertook the project of gathering these stories together in the late 19-teens because they realized that those old guys were passing away at a rapid rate and their stories would be lost forever if they weren’t collected. I’ll see if I can find a link to it, it is on the University of Texas Library website; that much I know for sure.

J Frank Dobie once worked for UT and he very well may have used this book as a reference to write The Longhorns.

[OldKat]

@jac 19298 wrote:

OldKat you have 10s of thousands of these Texas Longhorns in your area !!… are they still a viable beef breed ? or are they used for out crossing to more modern types ? Do they still look the same as the 1800s example.. forgive the questions but as a Scotsman I have never seen these cattle except for my John Wayne films… who along with Ben Johnson made a great cowboy film BTW…
John

Long answer to a short question follows: The area where I live is pretty much a cow-calf region anyway. My county has about 60,000 cows on January 1 inventory, and that is not counting bulls, yearlings or calves. Even with the recent explosion of urbanites moving to the area, cows still out number people probably 3 to 1. The counties to the north, west and south are bigger counties and have more cattle than we do, some having double what we do.

Surprisingly, the actual number of cows per herd in Texas is smaller than the rest of the country. The last year I saw statistics for this was in 2000, but in that year the national average cow herd was 31 head per owner. In Texas it was 21 head. Part of that is due to the fact that in other parts of the country people that own cattle have them for a fairly common reason … to produce beef.

In our area land prices have gone from $1,500 to 2,500 per acre ten years ago to the current $20,000 to 25,000 per acre. If you have cows you can get an “Ag Exemption” to dramatically lower your property taxes, so virtually every piece of property has cows on it. They also help keep the grass down but realistically people want them as a property tax dodge. With no state income tax our property taxes can be quite high, so the cattle “add value” just by existing. This is true pretty much over the entire state.

The land owners really don’t give a rip what kind of cattle they have they just want to “have some cows” … no thought given to making money, or even breaking even. So many, many of them opt for longhorns, because of the “romance” of them. Problem is they are very hard on fences, they just lower their heads and plow through all but the best of fences. You WILL NOT keep a longhorn bull in his pasture if he decides to go “visiting” with the neighbors cows. I have Red Angus cattle, so I really have no use for longhorn-cross calves. If I go look a piece of lease property and the neighboring place has longhorns on it I just keep going. I’ve dealt with them in the past and have no intention of doing it again.

A few people seek out longhorns to breed heifers to, because their calves are born tiny, tiny. However if you take a calf to the sale barn that is obviously a longhorn cross you will practically give it away. Feeder buyers won’t pay much for them because it takes so long to finish them out. Hope I don’t sound anti-longhorn, because they are a great part of our heritage. It is just that I have had some really bad experiences with them and the irresponsible people that owned them.

Not sure how the current day longhorns compare to the semi-feral cattle of the late 1800’s era. I do see a wide variation in colors and type today, but that was probably true back then as well.

[OldKat]

Now THAT’S what I am talking about! That looks like a smooth team of teamster and horse. Good job. Wish I could find a cultivator like that where I live.

That is one of the best working animal videos that I have seen someone post to Youtube, because it was clear and not jerky. No annoying wind noise whipping into the mic either.

[OldKat]

Sorry for your loss. Not a really old horse, did he die becasue it was just his time or did he have some condition that caused his death?

Once again, sorry to hear of his passing.

[Author]

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