[bivol]

Welcome Russel!

for working multiple hitches, check out “The bullock driver’s handbook”, from Arthur Cannon, it’s about driving big ox hitches in Australian outback, it could be an useful reference.

[bivol]

i don’t think they didn’t have the time to tame them, they didn’t know they could do that. their view of oxen is one they saw; wild, free-range beasts, who were dangerous (from beating, go figure!) and who could be dealt with only with force.
even if you don’t have years, you can take week or so to tame the animals, tame animals learn better and quicker than skittish, wild ones, because they trust the teamster and pay attention to what he has to say (instead of how will he hurt them this time). so the whole process goes faster and easier.

it was fun to read in the ox harness manual,where the author introduced the gentle taming and upbringing of oxen from calves (basically as used in Europe and USA and Canada) in a South American country, he noted that the students were surprised to learn that oxen can be affectionate, as it was customary to break in adult oxen in the country (Argentina?)

and also, of that video someone showed to farmers in cuba a video of a child in H4 contest driving huge oxen aside without touching them. they couldn’t believe it!

in this sense the indian population of teamsters is a blessing, to show how to use the nose rope system without (the teamster) falling victim to it. the key to it is to have tame oxen in the first place, and use the rings only to steer:D them about.

[bivol]

another thing: on taming adult wild oxen,
it isn’t wise to rely solely on nose rings to achieve dominance, most of it should be done by other means, the nose rings being only a little help. they are for directing.

all in all you need at least a sturdy corral with some shade, away from other cattle or unnecessary noise.
this should be done the following: if you have time, put them in a corral and gradually get to know them, feed them, but if you don’t have lots of time, start doing the following a few days after they arrive and settle in. offer them food, every day, for a few times, but only when you’re there, take it away with you. after a few days they will come to you, and you will, though controlling their food, become the dominant in the herd. this makes wild mature cattle safer around the teamster, as he dominates them psychically, instead through force. they subdue because the fulfills the role of the leader; he provides them with food.
nose rings can best help control oxen in the yoke (as mature wild cattle are prone to running away in yoke), but dominance is best achieved though non-physical means.
if you break in wild oxen by physical force alone, you can always expect they will do the same to you if they get an opportunity. and i personally dislike working with animals i don’t trust.

maybe it is somewhat cruel, and i wouldn’t reccommend it unless as a last resort, but it is more humane, less painfull, and quicker (no beating), than beating them into submission. if you beat them into submission, you will have to keep on doing it, because they will not be tamed, they will be traumatized into cooperation, that isn’t taming, that’s abuse.

[bivol]

i don’t think their yokes offer too much comfort, but i sure would like to see more of neck seat.

[bivol]

sometimes it is vital, even with oxen raised by hand, as they get older. but yes, that MUST USE THEM mindset, to rely on them too heavily, can be crippling to a teamster, and i guess it’s even harder to learn the oxen (and oneself) to rely on voice commands if one can tug a rope. not that it’s not practical, but i guess it’s hard to have both. hard, although not impossible.

but, nose rings do have their advantages, like instant stopping, and better control in crowds when driving in a wagon. so much they are more practical, for safety reasons if not for the possibility to drive in a wagon.

i’d say it entirely depends on a situation oneself finds him/herself in.

[bivol]

@near horse 18836 wrote:

Hi Biovol,

I hopped over to this thread from a recent link you posted. Maybe this isn’t the point, but there are lots of “nose ring/peg” examples. There are the weaning rings (calf cant suck), camel nose pegs, water buffalo …. It seems to me that nose piercing would only be a temporarily painful, like castration, tail docking, ear tagging …. even humans use(d) nose septum piercing as adornment.

That said, people can find ways to abuse an animal with any restraint and control system. It’s more an effect of how it’s used. IMHO

Ixy – if I recall, the camel nose pegs are also removed when not needed. That seems like a good way to go.

hi!
yes, you’re right. the pain is only temporary, but the shape of the ring is also important – for example, if you punch a straight hole through the nose, and put in a round ring, i guess it’ll unease the ox longer than a straight piece of iron, or a rope. there are no instances i know of, of ropes causing any inflamation, ropes have rutinely been used in hot humid conditions, and if they’d give trouble on a regular basis, they would have been discarded. so i guess a nose rope is fully functional, and a nose ring is purely a cultural thing. i’d prefer a rope.

humans are different in nose piercin, though. we pierce where there’s not much sensitive tissue, while the nose of the ox is a sensitive tissue. but having said that, it IS temporary, and there are lots of anestethics now, so i guess it’s no that bad.

abuse can be a problem, but i guess it’s rather simple to train TAME oxen to drive. people who train untamed oxen (like in Cuba) with nose rings sometimes think it’s not neccessary to tame them, and that an ox should be violently broken in (literary) into submission, something i will never support. that’s abuse.

oxen can effectively be tamed within a few weeks from a completely wild to fully tamed. with base set, the nose rings do the dominance and driving, and an ox is made useful in a short while, without unnecessary stress on the animal.
and it’s worth investing in those few weeks, since they’ll be working for years to come.

my two cents

[bivol]

wow, a totally new view at the chickens! i knew roosters were dangerous, but i didn’t know of this much power in the roost!

where we lived before we moved i new an old lady who told me stories from her home republic, and i heard a story that the rooster was the most dangerous animal on a the farm.” what dog?! take cover, the rooster’s charging!! straight line across the yard, and right for the eyes!”

oh man….:eek:

[bivol]

i’ve heard guardian dogs (at least sharplaninatz, they’re nuts!) handle all kinds of predator problems, including eagles… so, if things should boil up, you shoukld consider getting one…-.

second could be having longhorns, or at least horned cattle. horns are effective for such purposes…

[bivol]

no problem, glad you liked it!

if i find something similar,l i’ll keep posting it!;)

[bivol]

i found some pages:

http://www.utterpower.com/PS.htm

http://www.utterpower.com/listeroid-not.htm

hope it helps!:)

[bivol]

yes.

basically if they pull fine, it shouldn’t be a big issue if they hold heads up or down (given the yoke is comfortable, as it is).

[bivol]

@CharlyBonifaz 18410 wrote:

so if it were body language indeed, is there any way to change it? wider yokes? is it something that can be changed at all? being fixed together, no2 cannot get out of a potentially intimidating situation….
another idea: off ox very often is taller/bigger; does he not have to carry his head lower if the yoke has to remain horizontally?

well, this has crossed my mind: oxen will walk the nearest to their normal walking position when they know they can’t get any better pushing position (more touching surface) by holding their heads down.

so when i look oxen working in istrian bow yoke (it has a round neck seat, when compared to the flatter neck seat of the american bow yoke) i can see that (look at the attachment)

that’s the only thing not already said i can think off right now… maybe a different yoke with neck seats like an istrian yoke?…

or, see how in first video oxen are alert and fast, and in the second they’re lethargic? solution (maybe) nose baskets and driving them faster, so they need to walk with heads raised…

[bivol]

a good idea!

but you’d need to cover the entire world, it could be good to have a close-up option… maybe it’s already in, but i don’t know much about member maps.

[bivol]

not everything that is legal isn’t fair as well.
i remember a professor telling us how he observed an american colleage waving a wallet above his head, ironically stating:”this is justice!”
no offense, you still have a much better system than we have, but money plays too big a role, and i’m afraid it’s a power that can bend things. legally.

so things aren’t moving for the better. i’m still afraid of a globally controlled food market.

hope it won’t happen. but still, what can they do? come and dig up your garden?
now that would be touching in private property, and i don’t think that would pass. more people are coming online, and such people are a threat to various spin-doctors and interest groups that infest every country.

[bivol]

these people used oxen with iron bows in Montana, and i’m sure they used them in winter, too.

Carl’s idea is good, or keep them in the house overnight.

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