[cedarriverhorselogging]

I posted my system on value added based on the assumption that we all have the same ethics on forest management. If some of you were confused I would like to invite you to come up and see what we are doing. I am having a logging camp on February 13th-21st in Still Water Minnesota at the Warner Nature Center. We will have 20 or more people in camp, 16 horses, and two saw mills and a camp cook. I have students, apprentices from around the country and a production crew that works for me every year. Warner has never had a forest management plan until they started working with my company two years ago. We are now righting a long term management plan. 50% of the material is going to my shops. People are picking lumber of the mill to be processed by our shops to go into there new home. If you are interested you can contact me at 507438-2164.
We are sleeping in tents with wood stoves so bring a warm sleeping bag.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

I have had two fires in my business life and they both forced me to think out of the box on how do I keep going with no money. There are two things I have learned from this business and that is inventory cost money, and employees can sink the ship. I worked a long time to reduce inventory and employees and came up with a system that works well. We go from tree to product and instead of buying the standing timber I charge the landowner for my services. The land owner pays me so much a ft or by the hour to log. I help him market the logs to offset his costs. if he wants to improve his forest and take worst first it will not cash flow. If he wants it to break even we cut accordingly. It does not matter what I cut I get payed the same. this creates a grater trust between me and the landowner because I am working for him not the mill. I only buy at the point of sale that I have on a specific project. I might have a kitchen cabinet project that needs a 1000′ but I logged 8000′ for the land owner. I buy the 1000′ from the land owner at market value on the landing and the rest I help him sell. If the landowner wants to saw it I log it and saw it and he stores it. I have got paid for my work and have inventory that cost nothing. If I need some of the inventory I purchase the lumber from the landowner. Then he benefits from the value added and so do I but he does not need the skill set of milling to gain the value. Then when I have made a sale I pay him wholesale price based on hardwood markets. If someone wants flooring i do not market flooring I market time. If the customer wants sustainable products they have to wait for me to cut the tree down and process the material. I set up long term contracts with landowners to manage their forest. This gives me inventory that I do not have pay for until I have found the write market for. I only hire employees per job. When the Job is done they are done. We have several logging Camps a year so I hire what I need for each camp. I hire on shares and if they have there own insurance and comp I pay more shares to them. If they do not I take comp and feca out. I am sitting in my tent in northern Wisconsin as I write this waiting for a winter storm to pass.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

I think Scotts point is valid and needs balance. We have in the past made membership open but only practitioner were voting members.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

I will say yes

[cedarriverhorselogging]

#1 yes
#2 no

[cedarriverhorselogging]

I will sign on with Carl’s statement.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

I agree with Jason all most verbatim. I have had the same experience with people wanting to know what is in it for them. I worked on work mans comp but that was a disaster all states are different. Commercial liability was more workable but a lot of insurance companies were not licensed in all states. Lloyds of London covered everything and I had them for three years then there rates went up 600%. If someone can put the time in and find the right company for group rates it would draw members in.
I think animal power is what this is about not forwarders and mechanical systems.
If we use appropriate technology, my thought is that it means block and cable system,
carts, big wheels, go devils, and leather verses nylon. Things that are directly related to animal power. As for Horse Loggers outside this country we used to have a lot of horse loggers from Canada and they broke off and started there own associations.
What this forum is going to do is find out who has the tenacity to drive this association. If you think it is difficult to get input to this forum, ask every one to write an article for the first news letter. One or two people will be doing 90% of the work, with brief periods of members wondering what is in it for them.
If the public does not understand who we are, what we are, and what good are we. We will all starve to death. How are we going to educate the public.
As for who continues to have interest in this I would guess that most everyone on the list is interested but because of time or other commitments they respond when they have the time or when they strongly agree or disagree. If the ship is going in the write direction I generally do not turn the steering wheel. Most will do the same.
Thanks to all the effort that is being put in to this and to those who steer the ship.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

we had our membership set up as a general membership which included land owners and the general public. they received a news letter but could not vote. Only active horse loggers could vote. active meant that they had to work horses in the woods part time or full time. this prevented lawyers and foresters from steering the ship. it did give them input and they could make a suggestion but the horse loggers made the votes.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

I have been on the road for the last few days without internet so i need to catch up.

I think keeping it inexpensive to start with is a must. hard copy news letter is a good goal but is not cheap. start with email and then add hard copy when we have an income. the c3 or c6 will cost between $750 and $1000. nah&mla is set up in Oregon and we are suppose to have a member in Oregon.
Glenn has not been a member for some time and it needs to be transfered to another state. i was going to transfer it to Minnesota but it cost $750. With that and not being able to get a news letter out, which ran 12 to 14 pages, it would seem to be better to start fresh. it will still cost to set it up but we need a state to be the base for the non profit. you can still have you president were ever but you need to have a member in the base state.

focusing on Scotts email here is an out line of some things i thought of to focus on Please add to or discuss these thoughts.

1. a mission statement.
A. To promote, and educate the public on draft animal forestry and to provide a network for landowners to connect with practitioners
B. to provide an outreach program for new practitioners to learn and grow.

2. Goals- something to aim at.
A. to develop and international draft animal forestry association.
objective- how are we going to get to the goal.
a. develop a board of directors
b. develop districts- we had north west, mid west, south west, south, south east, north east, each district needs a director.
c. develop a non profit. 501c3, or 501c6
d. develop your financial structure,
1. how are you going to pay for your expenses. news letters, marketing, events.
2. income, memberships, how much? fund raisers, field days, seminars. ?

B. Benefits of members
a. receive a news letter, email or hard copy.
b. insurance benefits.
c. educational opportunities
d. networking with practitioners and landowners
c. better marketing opportunities.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

This is true Scott but we need to find someone that has the time, energy, and money to produce the news letter. getting people to subscribe is easy and money will come in. Sustaining someone to do the newsletter is very hard. We were fortunate to have Glenn and Ester work on it for so long. I have not found a lot of horse loggers that like to write.
Gregg Caudell was the exception when it came to writing.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

Carl
Carl has hit it on the head as to the mission. 1. to explore the development of an international association of draft animal timber harvesters.
2. to explore options concerning outreach and education to members and others interested in harvesting timber and forestry using draft animals.
keep our eye on the ball. it is easy to get side tracked. Taylor Johnson from WI. should be in on this. He is a full time horse logger.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

i think the idea of opening a new organization is good. i think that setting it up as a c3 is much better than a 501c6. it gives you more options. it would be easier to shut down nah&mla and open a new one than try two transfer everything. we would need to follow more protocol two transfer.

[cedarriverhorselogging]

I am glad to here there is still interest in getting something going again. I have been running the association as a contact point for land owners and horse loggers to connect. that still happens on occasion. this is not something that can or should be a one man show. It has to be a team effort. Years ago we were a 501c3 it was changed to a c6. this is a trade association. that limited the ability to raise funds. When i took over there were two things i wanted to accomplish with the association. one was to bring young horse loggers into the business through networking with more experiences loggers. two, it made no sense to bring young loggers in if they were going to starve to death, so i wanted to educate the public on horse logging to increase demand. Gregg is write it takes someone’s personal commitment and energy to make something grow. i can not do that alone.
It will take someone to put a news letter out on time and willing to put the time in to making a good news letter. Glenn and Ester were very good at putting out a news letter. Glenn could put one out faster than i can and he had Esters help. It is very hard to take a check from someone, tell them a news letter is coming and it does not. When I put out a news letter I spent 40 hrs per letter getting it out. 4 times a year is a months worth of work and I can not afford that and can not seem to find someone that can. the news letter was becoming a Tim Carroll news letter and was not getting enough input from others. i have tried several times to get some one to do the news letter. i got commitments and nothing happened.

If some of you are interested in getting this going we need a meeting with voting members. elect new officers that are willing to take on responsibility and get some direction back. we used to have an annual meeting if there is enough interest i will set one up. if not, i think we should shut it down. there is a lot i can do to support it, but i can not run the association and my business.

if you would like to get a hold of me my email is tcarroll@smig.net

[cedarriverhorselogging]

Hi TinaY
I am from southern minnesota and own Cedar River Horse Logging and wood Products.
We have been in business 16 yrs and teach horse logging and sustainable living skills. We work throughout the midwest and do a lot to promoting draft horse work. January 12, 9pm on tpt channel 17,we will be premiering a show on horse logging.TPT is a PBS affiliate. If there is anything we can help you with let us know. Our web site is cedarriverhorselogging.com

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